Riseball - ball rotation axis

[radness]

I don’t have the desire to start another thread and don’t know the other mechanics you mention. I’ll finish it with this and then see myself out - in MLB 2020 catchers in conventional catching stances accounted for almost identical passed balls and caught stealing when compared to one knee down setups. They did however, convert way more strikes on close pitches than conventional. As always, depends on the individual catcher to utilize what they feel best helps them given their skill sets.

Appreciate you bringing conversation to this . As to strikes/receiving pitches.

There is far too much detail on how the catchers are receiving pitches that can account for strikes.
Arm angle and glove,
that is left out of that conversation.
Which has nothing to do with two legged crouch or one knee down.

Also find it very hard to only use a comparison of professional men's pitching/catchers (which is highly controlled and technically refined) vs all of the catchers and levels of softball here on discuss fastpitch.
Would like to see the statistics on flingers, dirt pitches & wild pitches of all age levels in fastpitch...
That could be telling how differentiates role of catchers.

Seriously without a doubt little kids for decades and decades would start catching with one knee down and came to a point where they realized it was limiting Mobility some stayed with it others realized it was limiting and even little kids would move on from one knee down. It is not a New Concept

Think there is also another factor in Fastpitch
is how much more speed in the game. Catcher is responsible for holding Runners to their bases.

Bring on the catchers throwing from their knees video...ZAP

* want to add this i support the catcher starting on two legs, then reading a thrown pitch to then deciding to put a knee down.( if it's a low pitch that could be necessary)
and good for transition into mechanic for throwing.
However start with the knee down, no pitch yet, not even knowing the trajectory of the ball yet,
I would Not do.

 

[Towny9]

Appreciate you bringing conversation to this . As to strikes/receiving pitches.

There is far too much detail on how the catchers are receiving pitches that can account for strikes.
Arm angle and glove,
that is left out of that conversation.
Which has nothing to do with two legged crouch or one knee down.

Also find it very hard to only use a comparison of professional men's pitching/catchers (which is highly controlled and technically refined) vs all of the catchers and levels of softball here on discuss fastpitch.
Would like to see the statistics on wild pitches on Lower age levels of fastpitch softball compared to Major League Baseball.

Seriously without a doubt little kids for decades and decades would start catching with one knee down and came to a point where they realized it was limiting Mobility some stayed with it others realized it was limiting and even little kids would move on from one knee down. It is not a New Concept

Think there is also another factor in Fastpitch
is how much more speed in the game. Catcher is responsible for holding Runners to their bases.

Bring on the catchers throwing from their knees video...ZAP

* want to add this that I am not against the catcher starting on two legs, then reading a thrown pitch to then deciding to put a knee down.( if it's a low pitch that could be necessary)
and good for transition into mechanic for throwing.
However start with the knee down, not even know the trajectory of the pitch yet,
I would Not do.

I haven’t seen too many young unskilled kids one knee down. The girl in the video you posted was a P5 college player. I was directing my comment towards that and simply commenting on the merit in different catching setups. I think very soon (and it’s already happening at some) colleges will prefer catchers who can utilize multiple setups when recruiting.

 

[radness]

I haven’t seen too many young unskilled kids one knee down. The girl in the video you posted was a P5 college player. I was directing my comment towards that and simply commenting on the merit in different catching setups. I think very soon (and it’s already happening at some) colleges will prefer catchers who can utilize multiple setups when recruiting.

I agree with players who can be multi-talented.

But there is also further discussion on how the catcher uses their body/arm when Framing and receiving the ball that is part of that conversation that's left out

Good chat

 

[TonyK]

OK, so riseballs....I often wonder what would be more effective for a pitcher just starting to learn a riseball like my DD...a high dropball or a high bullet spin "fastball"?

 

[GunnerShotgun]

OK, so riseballs....I often wonder what would be more effective for a pitcher just starting to learn a riseball like my DD...a high dropball or a high bullet spin "fastball"?

No because no one will swing at it and you can't throw it fast enough to give the illusion that it's rising.

Start with the drop ball instead.

 

[Jeffrey]

OK, so riseballs....I often wonder what would be more effective for a pitcher just starting to learn a riseball like my DD...a high dropball or a high bullet spin "fastball"?

High drop balls get hammered - the ball runs right back into the swing plane. Bad rise balls get hit hard too, so just start off when learning it use it as a set-up pitch. (high and tight bullet spin is tough to hit) She might get chase and if she doesn't at least it sets up the drop/change a little.

 

[Hillhouse]

OK, so riseballs....I often wonder what would be more effective for a pitcher just starting to learn a riseball like my DD...a high dropball or a high bullet spin "fastball"?

I've bit my tongue on many things I've read here but this one.... I don't understand. A high dropball? On purpose? I'm perplexed by the question, high or low, the word "dropball" would mean forward rotation on the pitch, no? While getting backspin on a rise can take years (Years people, years) even bullet spin would be a step in the right direction in the process. Unless I misunderstand what you're asking Tony, a high drop won't help with learning this. And, Tony, I'm truly not trying to be a smarta$$ here. Is this something your DD is being taught?

The riseball is incredibly hard, which is why so few have correct rotation. If anyone is a golfer, the best analogy is using your driver. The driver is the toughest club in your bag to handle. The Rise will be the toughest pitch to learn. While everyone learns things differently, what works for Sally may not work for Jane in what terminology they will understand. But, there are a lot of mainstream things taught with this pitch which promote bulletspin instead of correcting it, such as the phrase "turn the doorknob" and throwing a football underhand. Remember something, what causes bullet spin in 99.999% of the cases is turning the wrist. "Turn the doorknob" promotes the wrist turning, where the thumb points towards the catcher instead of first base (for a RHP). Once that wrist turns, the ball will spin sideways as the thumb goes over the side of the ball instead of over it's back. Throwing a football underhand with a spiral also really promotes turning the wrist. I've always thought these 2 things, which are 2 of the most common things I hear from new students about their prior riseball training, make backspin even more difficult to achieve. Backspin is hard enough to get, having to overcome bad muscle memory in the process makes it even tougher. It took my YEARS to get the ball spinning backwards. And not because of a specific grip or because I had to unlearn bad habits a long the way. But because it's freaking hard to do.

From watching them live, I believe Ueno and Abbott have similar spin on their riseballs. Mostly sideways, almost curveball like not bullet spin sideways. Osterman had as close to backspin as I've ever seen from a female, but she primarily used her's to compliment her dropball more than as her dominant pitch. Mike White told me several years ago the best rotation on a riseball from a female he'd seen was from AZ pitcher Alicia Hollowell but I've never seen her myself so I'd take his word for it.

Who had the best that you caught RAD?

 

[TonyK]

I've bit my tongue on many things I've read here but this one.... I don't understand. A high dropball? On purpose? I'm perplexed by the question, high or low, the word "dropball" would mean forward rotation on the pitch, no? While getting backspin on a rise can take years (Years people, years) even bullet spin would be a step in the right direction in the process. Unless I misunderstand what you're asking Tony, a high drop won't help with learning this. And, Tony, I'm truly not trying to be a smarta$$ here. Is this something your DD is being taught?

The riseball is incredibly hard, which is why so few have correct rotation. If anyone is a golfer, the best analogy is using your driver. The driver is the toughest club in your bag to handle. The Rise will be the toughest pitch to learn. While everyone learns things differently, what works for Sally may not work for Jane in what terminology they will understand. But, there are a lot of mainstream things taught with this pitch which promote bulletspin instead of correcting it, such as the phrase "turn the doorknob" and throwing a football underhand. Remember something, what causes bullet spin in 99.999% of the cases is turning the wrist. "Turn the doorknob" promotes the wrist turning, where the thumb points towards the catcher instead of first base (for a RHP). Once that wrist turns, the ball will spin sideways as the thumb goes over the side of the ball instead of over it's back. Throwing a football underhand with a spiral also really promotes turning the wrist. I've always thought these 2 things, which are 2 of the most common things I hear from new students about their prior riseball training, make backspin even more difficult to achieve. Backspin is hard enough to get, having to overcome bad muscle memory in the process makes it even tougher. It took my YEARS to get the ball spinning backwards. And not because of a specific grip or because I had to unlearn bad habits a long the way. But because it's freaking hard to do.

From watching them live, I believe Ueno and Abbott have similar spin on their riseballs. Mostly sideways, almost curveball like not bullet spin sideways. Osterman had as close to backspin as I've ever seen from a female, but she primarily used her's to compliment her dropball more than as her dominant pitch. Mike White told me several years ago the best rotation on a riseball from a female he'd seen was from AZ pitcher Alicia Hollowell but I've never seen her myself so I'd take his word for it.

Who had the best that you caught RAD?

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I didn't mean to suggest throwing a high dropball as a means to develop the riseball. My DD, like others, uses a 12-6 dropball as her "fastball" (she also has a changeup). She mostly throws these low in the zone. However, I have found many batters struggle to hit high strikes at the arm pits and also chase high pitches out of the zone. Her only weapon to throw a high pitch for now is a 12-6 spinning high strike. We have not intentionally worked on any other pitches except the changeup and now just starting the rise.

So it seems that once she can achieve some level of an early development riseball (ie bullet spin that she can locate) that would be a better option than a high 12-6 spinning pitch (I'll refrain from saying "high dropball"). Of course the goal is to develop more true backspin over time.

 

[Jeffrey]

So it seems that once she can achieve some level of an early development riseball (ie bullet spin that she can locate) that would be a better option than a high 12-6 spinning pitch (I'll refrain from saying "high dropball"). Of course the goal is to develop more true backspin over time.

In my opinion, yes. Make sure she can throw with correct spin early in the back chain though as you work toward full pitch, but yes, "live" it won't be perfect, but it won't be a "drop."

 

[DNeeld]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I didn't mean to suggest throwing a high dropball as a means to develop the riseball. My DD, like others, uses a 12-6 dropball as her "fastball" (she also has a changeup). She mostly throws these low in the zone. However, I have found many batters struggle to hit high strikes at the arm pits and also chase high pitches out of the zone. Her only weapon to throw a high pitch for now is a 12-6 spinning high strike. We have not intentionally worked on any other pitches except the changeup and now just starting the rise.

So it seems that once she can achieve some level of an early development riseball (ie bullet spin that she can locate) that would be a better option than a high 12-6 spinning pitch (I'll refrain from saying "high dropball"). Of course the goal is to develop more true backspin over time.

Proper riseball spin takes a while to develop. Move slowly with it. How old is your DD? A good drop ball that can be located consistently around the knees for a strike as well as dipping below the zone, and on both corners of the plate combined with a good, deceptive change-up will carry a pitcher a long, long way.

To start introducing rise ball spin just work on keeping the fingers slicing under the ball instead of behind the ball. The thumb is most often what gets in the way of good backspin, so she'll probably start to develop bullet spin to start with.