Seen many pitchers with that bullet spin/off center axis whose pitches don't drop be very effective with a thigh high "riseball".
Help! Lack of Drop Ball Bite
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- Oct 4, 2020
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When you say "the pitch has to be spotted correctly.", can you explain a little more? What specifically (height at plate, height 4 feet out, height 8 feet out) should a pitcher be trying to do when it comes to locating the drop ball? Are you saying it has to be located appropriately? If yes, what is the appropriate spot? When DD's drop is on its way in its just above knee height maybe 8 feet out from the front edge of the plate, then begins its drop and by the time it reaches the plate its hitting it. Batters just aren't swinging at it and its of course not being called for a strike. When she tries to bring it in say at thigh height it isn't dropping. What I connected with on Shilo's comment was less related to how height might effect a pitcher ability to execute on the drop and more related to the idea that mechanics were changing when she was adjusting to locate the pitch higher. This seems at least plausible to me. Perhaps she's able to speed up the IR (which I've learned is important to get the drop to work) when she's releasing in one spot (the low delivery) but not in the other (the high delivery).
I think @Hillhouse was talking about the low rise location, not the drop ball.
My guess is your DD isn't obtaining a drop effect whether she is throwing it high or low. When she is throwing it low it is just the angle of the pitch that is bringing it down. Essentially, its just running out of gas before it gets to the plate.
But without some video its really impossible to properly diagnose or advise. You'll just get a bunch of people throwing spitballs at the wall hoping something will stick.
Oh, and an effective drop has nothing to do with the height of the pitcher. Following that logic, a short pitcher should have a superior rise vs. a tall pitcher.
Commenting (agreeing with DNeeld) on the height piece. If the too short thing was true my DD shouldn't be able to throw a drop ball. She’s 5’ 3” on a good day. And does throw a quite effective drop ball.
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My DD is 5’4” and the drop is her primary pitch. When she is on, it is a good pitch for her.
When her drop is not dropping very well, we’ve learned that the most likely reason for her is release angle. That is, she has too much back tilt when she lands and throws, releasing the ball on an upward trajectory rather than a flatter trajectory. We work on getting closer to vertical when she throws it.
One thing we’ve found—really stolen from others—to be effective for improving her posture for the drop is bouncing the ball to the catcher 3 or 4 times. Trying to one hop the ball to the catcher. This tends to help and get her in a better posture. Then we go right back to throwing the drop.
The other thing is just throwing it a lot. I am also a fan of the drop ball string to give her instant visual feedback on whether the ball is doing what it should do.
When her drop is not dropping very well, we’ve learned that the most likely reason for her is release angle. That is, she has too much back tilt when she lands and throws, releasing the ball on an upward trajectory rather than a flatter trajectory. We work on getting closer to vertical when she throws it.
One thing we’ve found—really stolen from others—to be effective for improving her posture for the drop is bouncing the ball to the catcher 3 or 4 times. Trying to one hop the ball to the catcher. This tends to help and get her in a better posture. Then we go right back to throwing the drop.
The other thing is just throwing it a lot. I am also a fan of the drop ball string to give her instant visual feedback on whether the ball is doing what it should do.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,386
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Then I'd say the hitting is fairly weak of a thigh high riseball with bad spin is effective. Apologies if that sounds pretentious.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I don't even know how to answer this. Wow, my head is spinning. LOL. Where is the ball 4 ft out? 8 feet out? I've never thought of such things. But, to be 100% clear, ALL pitches need to be spotted correctly!
In my experience, both playing and coaching, there's 2 main things that hurt a dropball. And both of them are assuming that correct spin is on the ball, 6/12 rotation with 4 seams. FIRST issue is usually a bad release point. Releasing the ball late will angle the ball upwards towards the hitter, even if we're just talking a couple degrees upward. But that angle upward, combined with the pitcher's velocity means it will get to the catcher before it can break. SECOND is simply over throwing. Trying to throw the ball too hard flattens it out, this is true of almost every pitch.
Can there be other things? Of course. The more whip the elbow does in the pitch, the more RPM's will be put on the rotation. But it also has to be correct rotation! Getting great spin that is not correct spin is a waste of time. But you're asking us to diagnose an ailment without seeing the patient. Even a video (if you posted one) doesn't show if there's correct spin, it will only show if correct spin is even possible.
I really think you're over thinking the problem. If you're trying to figure out where the ball is 4 feet out, etc. I think there's a lot being over thought. Use Occum's razor as your guide: all things being equal, the simplest answer is probably the correct one.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I'm cracking up too. LOL.Let's say someone was physiologically normal but 4-1/2 ft tall. Would they be able to throw a drop for a strike against typical height batters? How about if they were 4 ft tall? How about 3-1/2 ft tall?
I think we can agree that there's some lower bound on height that precludes being able to throw an effective drop for a strike. I don't know where that lower bound is, but I know it exists.
Haven't thought about it before but I suppose someone say 8' tall might have trouble throwing a rise to say a 5' tall batter. Imagine how far they would have to stride to get to an effective release point and how close they'd be when they released the ball. Would that even be legal??
OK, so another pitcher's dad suggested to me that his 5'4" DD was too short to throw an effective drop. OK by me; makes sense that someone shorter wouldn't be able to use a drop as effectively as someone taller. Do I know if 5'4" is the cutoff? No, of course not. My DD is 5'10".
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BTW these mental images of very tall and very short pitchers throwing to typical height batters are cracking me up.
Thanks for the prompt. I'll be laughing to myself all night.
I'll have to think about this more to give a more articulate answer. Suffice it to say, I don't believe size matters in throwing a drop. I don't believe it matters in a rise. I've never heard of such a thing in all my life. I don't know how to calibrate the numbers: 4'6 pitcher throwing to a 6'0 hitter, etc. I also can't recall ever seeing a 4'6 pitcher playing against adults or "normal size" people. Although, I'm sure it's happened. I do know that I wasn't always 6'3. I don't recall how tall I was at 12 when I first pitched in a men's league game but I know they were a lot bigger than me.
Now I have the image of when the baseball team (Chi White Sox???) put the midget up to bat in the world series and the other team (Dodgers???) couldn't throw him a strike.
Yeah, I had never thought of it either until that Dad mentioned it. And then this post came up and it's like the universe calling.
For 99% of pitchers, a drop/rise combo is a great idea, no argument there.
- Jul 14, 2018
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DD had a somewhat similar experience. Almost the same height, age, and speed. A Tincher student as well.
She learned the peel drop at 12, and it was effective for a few seasons. But by second-year 14U, it was hitting the ground and nobody swung at it.
So she stopped throwing it. At 15 now, she throws in the low 50’s and has developed a near-perfect 12-6 spin on her fastball. Her spin rate is very high, so just about every pitch she throws, drops. Want to throw a drop? She basically throws at the knees and lets the spin do the rest. And she’s more accurate with her location without the peel.
In short, your daughter is probably throwing harder with better spin as she gets older, and she’s going to have to change her approach accordingly.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
She learned the peel drop at 12, and it was effective for a few seasons. But by second-year 14U, it was hitting the ground and nobody swung at it.
So she stopped throwing it. At 15 now, she throws in the low 50’s and has developed a near-perfect 12-6 spin on her fastball. Her spin rate is very high, so just about every pitch she throws, drops. Want to throw a drop? She basically throws at the knees and lets the spin do the rest. And she’s more accurate with her location without the peel.
In short, your daughter is probably throwing harder with better spin as she gets older, and she’s going to have to change her approach accordingly.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
