Forfeit

[Comp]

I got this confirmed tonight because I was 95% certain, but then did a google thing and saw different/incorrect information so I paused and deleted my original post.

The number of umpires who don't actually understand "projected substitution" means is staggering. Can't tell you how many times I've had umpires tell me I can't, for example, sub for the first three hitters of the inning all at once before the inning starts. It's frustrating, but I don't actually argue it because it doesn't affect the game.

I would be surprised if an umpire allowed an actual projected substitution with how many won't allow a regular substitution because they think it's a projected substitution.

The main reason so many umpires think trying to change more than 1 batter at a time is a projected substitution is because NFHS actually used to have that as the definition of a projected substitution. They did finally change is several years back, but even then they had 2 conflicting posts on their website, one said changing more than one batter at a time was a projected sub and the other said it was not. Unfortunately the incorrect post saying it was a projected sub came out first and got sent out and was posted on a lot of state softball websites. About 2 weeks later they came out with the second statement that apparently did not get sent out to all the states and so the incorrect ruling remained posted for years. NFHS did finally remove the incorrect ruling but the damage was done.

 

[dogpatch]

NFHS 2-57-4: Projected substitute- A projected substitute is the act of entering a substitute without first removing a player from that position in the lineup.

This wording in no way implies that you cannot change more than one batter at a time. It simply tells us that the moment the substitution is announced, the player who was substituted for is out of the game. Projecting subsitituions to be made later in the game would be an unnecessary headache for umpires and the opposing team to keep up with. It could also become a source of confusion leading to substitution violations that are intended or unintended.

 

[Comp]

At one time NFHS did consider changing more than 1 batter as being a projected substitution regardless of what the rule said. That was their interpretation, but the changed it 5-8 years ago. As I said, the damage was done and many umpires still believe it can't be done. About a year ago I could still find the incorrect ruling posted on some states websites.

 

[Agcy]

I got this confirmed tonight because I was 95% certain, but then did a google thing and saw different/incorrect information so I paused and deleted my original post.

The number of umpires who don't actually understand "projected substitution" means is staggering. Can't tell you how many times I've had umpires tell me I can't, for example, sub for the first three hitters of the inning all at once before the inning starts. It's frustrating, but I don't actually argue it because it doesn't affect the game.

I would be surprised if an umpire allowed an actual projected substitution with how many won't allow a regular substitution because they think it's a projected substitution.

That kind of surprises me. If a coach tells me about a substitute, I mark it at the time I am told and it is done and effective from that point forward - I don't care if they bat now or in three innings, they are now in that position (both offensively and defensively).

There is a State Tournament quality coach in the area that like to "I'm putting #3 in to bat for #5 and then #3 will return to the lineup after this half inning". I simply tell him that the projected re-entry isn't legal. He tells me that some umpires let him do that. I tell him I don't. Funny thing is that he was mic'd up in the State Championship game last year and had the same conversation and result with that umpire as well.

 

[CoachJD]

The main reason so many umpires think trying to change more than 1 batter at a time is a projected substitution is because NFHS actually used to have that as the definition of a projected substitution. They did finally change is several years back, but even then they had 2 conflicting posts on their website, one said changing more than one batter at a time was a projected sub and the other said it was not. Unfortunately the incorrect post saying it was a projected sub came out first and got sent out and was posted on a lot of state softball websites. About 2 weeks later they came out with the second statement that apparently did not get sent out to all the states and so the incorrect ruling remained posted for years. NFHS did finally remove the incorrect ruling but the damage was done.

That explains both why some umpires get this wrong and some of the weird information I found online.

I had quite the moment the other night when I was reading one thing in my rules book and seeing "the rule" with completely different language in the other.

Ultimately it's not something ever worth arguing. I'll save my need to be right for an umpire messing up a rule that actually affects my team's chances of winning the game.

 

[Big Daddy Michigan]

There is a State Tournament quality coach in the area that like to "I'm putting #3 in to bat for #5 and then #3 will return to the lineup after this half inning". I simply tell him that the projected re-entry isn't legal. He tells me that some umpires let him do that. I tell him I don't. Funny thing is that he was mic'd up in the State Championship game last year and had the same conversation and result with that umpire as well.

This is slightly different, but so many coaches say, "Number three will bat for number 5 and then 5 will reenter," and many umpires allow it.

The problem is that's ambiguous. When? If number three gets on base is number 5 reentering as the runner? (unlikely) What if the team bats around? Is three still batting or has 5 been reentered when three's at bat is completed. What if #5 twists her ankle in the dug-out and can't reenter? Is three able to stay in the game or has she been subbed out? (depending on ruleset reentry rules)

 

[The Man In Blue]

I will admit I used to be the “only when they come up” guy because that is how I was taught. Now, I’m with @Comp on the right side.

To answer @Big Daddy Michigan ’s questions: they are in as soon as the umpire gets it and announces it. If the coach wants to give us three substitutions at the half inning, that is fine, but they are effective RIGHT THEN. That isn’t projected, that is now. Whatever happens in between, the coach will have to deal with within the confines of re-entry and substitution rules.

You told me #25 was coming in for #7 to bat third in the inning, but when her spot comes up #25 had to pee … sorry, she is in. No take backs!

Anything that is not “right now” is projected and not allowed.