Cheating or Aggressive Base Running?

[redhotcoach]

What kind of coach not only cheats the game like that but forces kids to be part of it. Non of them will ever forget how they cheated. Some will be embarrassed and it will add to others idea that cheating is no big deal.

 

[CoachJD]

If you start using non-specific rules about sportsmanship, umpires could penalize teams for tying their shoes to run out the clock, or acting like they caught a sinking liner when they knew they didn't. I know what we're discussing is far more serious, but it's still subjective. You don't want a situation where umpires aren't in general agreement on how to handle it.

I agree with this. And while this play is all kinds of wrong, I'm not sure I'd call it cheating. I am not sure where the line between gamesmanship and cheating is.

If I coach my players to sell a catch on a ball that may/may not have hit the ground, am I teaching them to play unfairly? Or is that the right thing to do because, sometimes, if you don't sell it you may not get the call you deserve?

When I played, I once had a sliding/diving catch where I lost the ball in a way where my body shielded it from the umpire. I picked it up and held it up and got the out call and I do not feel bad about it. But doing this would make me feel horrible. Yet, intellectually, I can't parse a big difference between the two. I guess because what I did wasn't a designed, practiced illegal play? Because it's not my fault the umpire didn't see the ball on the ground? Or am I just being a hypocrite here?

So where is the line? Like Nimrod says, this is all subjective. And I keep going back to the fact that they did something that breaks an obvious rule and all the team had to do was appeal and the play doesn't work. I almost look at this play like committing a foul in basketball or like a pass interference in football. You're breaking a rule, but you're doing it right in front of the officials, and there is a mechanism to punish that breaking of a rule. I don't consider that cheating. Was it cheating when the Seahawks were trained to commit DPI on every pass because they knew refs wouldn't call it most of the time?

Edit: Also, I understand and agree that these are kids and maybe that should be handled differently, and if the school wants to punish their coach for this I'd support it. I wouldn't want my coaches doing this, mostly because it tells your players you don't believe in them enough to win the normal way. I don't know that I think the sport's governing body should get involved.

 

[marriard]

I find it amusing that an umpire would try to make the case that somehow this can't be called without an appeal.

Do your job. This is it. Throw your hands up, call time and figure out how you are going to do the right thing.

Absolutely disagree.

There is no case to be made to make up a call. It is the right call to wait for an appeal here as per the rules. You don't make stuff up especially when a rule absolutely covers this - missed base is an appeal play. Make the appeal, out is called that is that.

I certainly can't assume this was intentional. I just don't have that info at the time of the play. For all I know the runner is an idiot or got lost or whatever. I have seen players do dumber things.

If I make up a rule for this, what else am I allowed to make rules up for?

 

[MoJo]

I agree with this. And while this play is all kinds of wrong, I'm not sure I'd call it cheating. I am not sure where the line between gamesmanship and cheating is.

If I coach my players to sell a catch on a ball that may/may not have hit the ground, am I teaching them to play unfairly? Or is that the right thing to do because, sometimes, if you don't sell it you may not get the call you deserve?

When I played, I once had a sliding/diving catch where I lost the ball in a way where my body shielded it from the umpire. I picked it up and held it up and got the out call and I do not feel bad about it. But doing this would make me feel horrible. Yet, intellectually, I can't parse a big difference between the two. I guess because what I did wasn't a designed, practiced illegal play? Because it's not my fault the umpire didn't see the ball on the ground? Or am I just being a hypocrite here?

So where is the line? Like Nimrod says, this is all subjective. And I keep going back to the fact that they did something that breaks an obvious rule and all the team had to do was appeal and the play doesn't work. I almost look at this play like committing a foul in basketball or like a pass interference in football. You're breaking a rule, but you're doing it right in front of the officials, and there is a mechanism to punish that breaking of a rule. I don't consider that cheating. Was it cheating when the Seahawks were trained to commit DPI on every pass because they knew refs wouldn't call it most of the time?

Edit: Also, I understand and agree that these are kids and maybe that should be handled differently, and if the school wants to punish their coach for this I'd support it. I wouldn't want my coaches doing this, mostly because it tells your players you don't believe in them enough to win the normal way. I don't know that I think the sport's governing body should get involved.

WWJD....not this ^^^^^

 

[daywalkerdad]

act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.
Just thought I would post the definition of cheating.

 

[MoJo]

Absolutely disagree.

There is no case to be made to make up a call. It is the right call to wait for an appeal here as per the rules. You don't make stuff up especially when a rule absolutely covers this - missed base is an appeal play. Make the appeal, out is called that is that.

I certainly can't assume this was intentional. I just don't have that info at the time of the play. For all I know the runner is an idiot or got lost or whatever. I have seen players do dumber things.

If I make up a rule for this, what else am I allowed to make rules up for?

So Sad that there are those that think cheating is ok till you get caught and then argue that they still didn't cheat.

 

[Vertigo]

act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.
Just thought I would post the definition of cheating.

This thread is refreshing to me as I recall a thread several months ago regarding purposely telling players to leave early on a steal as being ok by a few posters on here (honestly don’t recall who). The reasoning being “it’s not cheating unless you’re caught. “

It’s nice to see that several posters do disagree with this line of thinking!

 

[_MIA_]

I agree with @marriard that umpires cannot start making up their own guidelines regardless of how egregious something is (my only exception would be if something was being done that was physically dangerous) I doubt most of you would like umpires imposing their “will” on a game..that could be a slippery slope.

That said it is hard to believe the parents of the offending team didn’t see it happen. In order for a coach to coach he needs players…

 

[Westwind]

Absolutely disagree.

There is no case to be made to make up a call. It is the right call to wait for an appeal here as per the rules. You don't make stuff up especially when a rule absolutely covers this - missed base is an appeal play. Make the appeal, out is called that is that.

I certainly can't assume this was intentional. I just don't have that info at the time of the play. For all I know the runner is an idiot or got lost or whatever. I have seen players do dumber things.

If I make up a rule for this, what else am I allowed to make rules up for?

As always, I respect your opinion on all things softball.

This is an extreme situation. This is miscarriage of justice type stuff.

I don't think you need to MSU.

The "making a mockery of the game" argument has been made.

I bet an umpire with the amount of experience that post here could figure out how to get the head coach onto the field where you quietly tell him "Do me a favor. Point over there in front of where the ss plays. Walk over there with me and look for the tracks of where their runner cut through. That is an appealable call".

Instead, "the call" gets put on the internet and it makes our sport (and its umpires) look very foolish.

I don't buy it that the umpires had no means to right a wrong this egregious.

 

[Westwind]

I agree with @marriard that umpires cannot start making up their own guidelines regardless of how egregious something is (my only exception would be if something was being done that was physically dangerous) I doubt most of you would like umpires imposing their “will” on a game..that could be a slippery slope.

That said it is hard to believe the parents of the offending team didn’t see it happen. In order for a coach to coach he needs players…

I swear I came up with "egregious" before I saw you use it, lol