Dad with some questions about my new pitcher?

[Traps71]

You all know I'm not a fan of bullet spin. Sorry, nobody is going to convince me it's a good thing. And I realize many people look at the pitchers on TV and use that as the standard for many things good and bad in pitching. But, I personally believe some pitchers are considered good despite what they do, not because of it. Cat Osterman is the best women's pitcher I've ever seen in person, none of her pitches were bullet spin.

The other point that needs to be remembered, that majority of girls that I know pitching on TV are very big girls. 6 foot, 6'1, 6'2, etc. Not even the best pitching coach in the world can teach a kid to grow to that size. Being that tall allows for a pitcher to get away with things that may not be the most mechanically sound. Pitchers today like to imitate Jordy Bahl. But, the previous generation of young pitchers wanted to imitate Monica Abbot. Personally, I've never understood or liked that giant bend forward she does prior to the pitch. But, she made it work no question. But would anyone encourage or teach their students to do that giant lean forward? Probably not, even though one of the best was doing it.

There is a saying that I remember from my not very impressive and ill-fated weightlifting career that, in a way, also applies to pitching or perhaps any athletic endeavor: You can be wrong, if you are strong.

That is, if you are big enough, strong enough, or athletic enough you can have success—even great success—with mechanics, technique, or an approach that is sub-optimal or something an instructor would never teach because it would not work for mere mortals.

The girls pitching on TV for elite programs are the top 1% of pitchers in the country. You take the top 2 or 3 pitchers on a Top 25 team and you are talking 50-75 girls from across the country. They have unique physical—and most likely mental—attributes that exist prior to any discussion of mechanics. For those of them that have less than ideal mechanics or even poor mechanics, they simply have more room for error than your average or even above average pitcher.

 

[ArmWhip]

they simply have more room for error than your average or even above average pitcher.

Yes, but the only problem with this line of reasoning is wouldn't they be even better if they didn't throw bullet spin? I find it hard to believe that the best pitchers in the game aren't using all the weapons available to them. I think there is a trade off between velocity and backspin, the more backspin the less velocity. Bullet spin is the compromise, high velocity with some 'float'.

 

[tomorrow]

Yes, but the only problem with this line of reasoning is wouldn't they be even better if they didn't throw bullet spin? I find it hard to believe that the best pitchers in the game aren't using all the weapons available to them. I think there is a trade off between velocity and backspin, the more backspin the less velocity. Bullet spin is the compromise, high velocity with some 'float'.

We are also not talking one or two pitchers but the vast majority of these elite pitchers throw with bullet spin. It seems like this is one of the major differences between the men's game and the women's game in terms of rise balls. I am not sure what Japan does in regardless to riseballs.

 

[ArmWhip]

It seems like this is one of the major differences between the men's game and the women's game in terms of rise balls.

Video is limited but I would guess that this is what you typically see in the men's game, here's Adam Folkard, the rise starts at about 1:00 minute. it look like it's about half bullet spin, half backspin. I have seen some video of women with very good backspin, but I don't know what kind of velocity those examples had.

 

[Chilixa]

Yes, but the only problem with this line of reasoning is wouldn't they be even better if they didn't throw bullet spin? I find it hard to believe that the best pitchers in the game aren't using all the weapons available to them. I think there is a trade off between velocity and backspin, the more backspin the less velocity. Bullet spin is the compromise, high velocity with some 'float'.

This is kind of where my DD ended up with things. Her “fastball” has natural top spin like many others and that isn’t ideal when trying to throw up in the zone. When she gets backspin on a pitch it slows it way down. That is essentially her change up now. She throws a bullet spin pitch when we want to go hard and high in the zone. It may not be what some consider a riseball but it is effective. It is a pitch with no downward spin and it starts low and finishes high in the zone. We always question whether there are better ways to do things but so far those 3 pitches allow her to be very effective.


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[bsbs]

I wonder if technology like rapsodo becoming more prevalent if we'll see more true backspin from the girls going forward?

 

[daywalkerdad]

I wonder if technology like rapsodo becoming more prevalent if we'll see more true backspin from the girls going forward?

It may show it does not matter.
The ball goes up mainly from velocity and angle at release. Not as much from spin. If the pitch has less lift it will be compensated mainly by release angle being slightly higher.
I used an online calculator, top line is bullet spin, middle line is back spin. Bottom line is user error I could not remove.
There is only about 1-2” difference in path. I think once you account for spin efficiency of backspin, and if bullet spin generated any wake effect, or has some backspin it will be close.
So the better pitch will be which one the pitcher throws faster and locates better more than added lift from backspin.

 

[Traps71]

Yes, but the only problem with this line of reasoning is wouldn't they be even better if they didn't throw bullet spin? I find it hard to believe that the best pitchers in the game aren't using all the weapons available to them. I think there is a trade off between velocity and backspin, the more backspin the less velocity. Bullet spin is the compromise, high velocity with some 'float'.

I guess it depends on whether throwing with bullet spin is a result of bad mechanics. Although I am spin direction guy, it seems at least debatable whether bullet spin is actually a flaw. Given its prevalence and the success many have with it even at high levels, you have to wonder. High velo (65+) bullet spin and good location seems like a winning formula for many high level pitchers in fastpitch. Location is the key—any velo or spin left in the wrong spot is going to get rocked, as the Clearwater Invitational is showing. Not to mention the free passes. But I digress…

I think two things could be true that lead to the amount of bullet spin we are seeing. First, It’s easy to learn and effective. Many pitchers seem to throw this way naturally and have success doing so starting at lower levels. If something is working—even if theoretically it won’t or shouldn’t work as well at the next level—no player or coach is going to change that. If it ain’t broke…

The second thing—which I know from my experience with my own DD—is that it is just very hard to develop consistent correct spin and sharp ball movement. Been working with my DD on her drop ball for years. Her best drops will be between 6 & 7 o’clock spin. When it works, it’s a thing of beauty. Then there are those days where the ball flattens out and does nothing and you are wondering what you are doing with your life. Point is, developing correct spin on movement pitches is really hard and takes a ton of work. If you are getting batters out with bullet spin, why would you deal with all that?

 

[sluggers]

Point is, developing correct spin on movement pitches is really hard and takes a ton of work. If you are getting batters out with bullet spin, why would you deal with all that?

Exactly. For 99.9% of the pitchers, there is no "next level" after college. These college kids are part-time pitchers. Their pitching careers end at 23YOA.

Does a true riseball jump more than a bullet spin rise? Sure. But movement is only one part of the "effective pitcher" equation.

Pitching success comes down to control, speed, movement, and change-ups. It costs time to learn each these things, and a kid only has so much time to devote to softball.

 

[RADcatcher]

I find it hard to believe that the best pitchers in the game aren't using all the weapons available to them.

This is included with all their weapons.

Bullet spin is the compromise, high velocity with some 'float'.

Velocity and Float if that is what you're wanting to call it which sounds good to me. Then it is both speed and movement!