13 year old swing mechanics help!

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Jan 14, 2009
1,589
0
Atlanta, Georgia
I don't believe just focusing on the "sequence" is the whole answer. To put it into perspective here is a picture of a 24 oz bottle of coke...

24ozCokeCherryZero.jpg


Are you saying that a "girl" can't throw a 24 oz bottle of coke with both hands unless the sequence is correct without her arms flattening out?

There has to be some conscious effort to have a good hand path. It isn't just stretch and coil.

I never once said that the "sequence" is the whole answer. Not once. As a coach, parent and occasional instructor, I have a responsibility to understand cause and effect and not change proper movements.

I said I like how the young lady in the clip flattens her hands. I see some external rotation of the rear upper arm at swing initiation, which I like. I know from doing thousands of swings myself, that when I get the back arm action correct, my front arm automatically responds. I also know from experimentation that a focus on lead arm drills can potentially result in a swing where the lead arm pulls. Which almost always results in a gate type swing. I spent five years teaching my daughter to keep her front elbow up; lead with the front elbow. No matter what I did, I could not get rid of her bat drag. At least not without sacrificing her separation and having her swing turn into a gate swing. Eighteen months ago I dumped all my front arm cues, in favor of teaching connection with a focus on what I believe to be proper rear upper arm action during the slotting of the rear elbow.

I came to this conclusion after reading these passages from Epstein:


"(If the rear elbow doesn't tuck down-and-in when the swing launches, the back arm will pre-extend outward, resulting in a "casting" motion."

"No matter where the hitter places his rear elbow in his stance, it must "slot" (tuck "down and in" against his ribcage) at the launch position. The underlying reasons are (1) to allow the lead elbow to work up and help reposition the hitter’s body-tilt rearward so the plane of the swing can match the plane of the pitch, and (2) so the hitter can stay inside the ball. Both of these movements, coupled with the hitter’s torque position, comprise the "universal" technique of the vast majority of baseball’s best and most productive hitters."

"The correct definition of staying inside the ball is "the hands follow the rotating body around its axis." For this to occur, the back elbow—on the swing approach—must already be "slotted" down and in against the hitter’s ribcage. It makes no difference where his hands are positioned in his stance: his pre-swing movements will reposition his hands as he strides to the "universal launch position" (the top of the top hand aligned approximately with the bottom of the armpit). Slotting the elbow correctly enables the hitter to stay "connected" when he starts his swing. If he isn’t connected at this point, it will be very difficult—if not impossible—for him to stay inside the ball."

"The kinetic link works in conjunction with the hands staying inside the ball, which means the hands and bat remain close to the body during the sequential transfer of energy. For this to occur, the rear elbow must tuck in on the approach. The hand path stays circular as the hips begin to decelerate and the upper torso receives its maximum energy-transfer. "Extension" occurs as the swing nears the appropriate contact zone, which is normally dependent on pitch location. In other words, a hitter’s hands and arms must stay "connected" to his body until extending through contact."

"If the rear elbow doesn’t tuck in, and pre-extends early in the swing, the hitter is predisposed to hit around the ball. Period. He’s doomed at the outset. Tucking in the rear elbow significantly shortens the swing, allowing the player to be more compact and quicker to the ball."

"Tuck: Refers to the "slotting" of the rear elbow that is executed at swing launch. If the hitter’s rear elbow does not tuck down and in or slot correctly—at the precise time—the hitter will not be able to stay "inside" the ball, and will "cast" their hands, which reduces bat speed and power."

"To properly stay inside the ball, the hitter must tuck their rear elbow in and down against their rib cage."

"The hitter’s rear elbow must slot close to, or rub against, their body. If the swing does not launch with the rear elbow in this position, it will not be possible for the hitter to stay inside the ball."


Epstein also refers to the top hand as the power source and the bottom hand as the swing guide.

Williams refers to the top hand as the power source.

Bonds talks about the top hand.

Pujols describes the swing as a two handed throw.

Slaught talks about the swing in terms of a throw; as in turning a double play or skipping a rock.

Based on the above information I concluded that my focus needed to be on the backside and not the front side. Others are free to disagree. Plus, everytime I see a clip of a fastpitch hitter that has what I consider to be exhibiting "forced" connection; the result is always a gate swing.

Regarding the coke bottle; I have no idea what would happen. The girls I work with swing bats not coke bottles. You do realize that the moment of inertia for a 24oz coke bottle is different than a 30, 31, 32 inch bat, right:confused:
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,019
0
Portland, OR
Coach Dan,
I am curious about one thing with regard to your daughter. That is (and I think most here would agree) enhancing one thing could fix more than that "one thing."

So my one suggestion would be to cock the hands. Now, let me elaborate on that just a bit. Many kids when told to do this will LIFT THE ARMS. Not good. If you would like to take the time to look at Christie Fox on the model swings thread you will see an exaggerated version of cocking the hands. Not good for most but she was,,, for sure,,, able to handle it.

Now this cocking may or may not be something that she will take to very well,,,initially. But it could put her in position to have the slack in the lead arm removed PRIOR to initiation of her swing...(as referenced by Wellphyt). Not that I am promoting a "barred / locked out" lead arm, but you will likely see the lead arm extend. The big benefit really should be to get the slack out of the lead shoulder, not to simply extend the arm.

Anyway,

Let me explain the best I can thru the written word.
Cocking of the hands will likely extend her lead arm a bit.
It may lift her back elbow.
It almost certainly will put her back elbow (at the very least) BEHIND her hands. (see clips and stills)
Lastly, it will put her hands into a position that it is less likely that she will pull her arms forward as her first move.

It is a small move with perhaps big dividends. One of the questions regarding a cocking of the hands would be, "When?"
Imo, it varies. I'm including two clips. One that shows the hitter already "cocked" and one that is from face on that is "later". In the face on clip notice the tip of the barrel "moving to the camera." (later, as compared to the first clip).
2namo0j.jpg


4fu4gz.jpg


And then something else to take a peek at.
Cocked and ready.
2cx83ro.jpg


Thanks Five Frame for the clips.!

LC ... I've read your post several times.

Very very nice!!

Help me a bit with the "timing" aspects of cocking the hands. The perspective I'm interested in is in terms of favoring the promotion of "Stretch". Basically I'm asking if you can add a bit more to topic of "when" ... especially in terms of promoting the sequence of Coil-Stretch.
 
R

RayR

Guest
Teach them how to swing a hammer. Uncock the wrist early and you swing the arm as it straightens to get the hammer head lined up (casting) without much power. Keep the wrist cocked and keep the front elbow on line and the wrist will learn to release upon contact.

I made a quick video showing the difference - it's hard to see but the hammer head takes two different paths to the table. And obviously one is more powerful with the same amount of effort.



Anyone know where I can get used crochet mallets? :)

Coach Dan,
I am curious about one thing with regard to your daughter. That is (and I think most here would agree) enhancing one thing could fix more than that "one thing."

So my one suggestion would be to cock the hands. Now, let me elaborate on that just a bit. Many kids when told to do this will LIFT THE ARMS. Not good. If you would like to take the time to look at Christie Fox on the model swings thread you will see an exaggerated version of cocking the hands. Not good for most but she was,,, for sure,,, able to handle it.

Now this cocking may or may not be something that she will take to very well,,,initially. But it could put her in position to have the slack in the lead arm removed PRIOR to initiation of her swing...(as referenced by Wellphyt). Not that I am promoting a "barred / locked out" lead arm, but you will likely see the lead arm extend. The big benefit really should be to get the slack out of the lead shoulder, not to simply extend the arm.

Anyway,

Let me explain the best I can thru the written word.
Cocking of the hands will likely extend her lead arm a bit.
It may lift her back elbow.
It almost certainly will put her back elbow (at the very least) BEHIND her hands. (see clips and stills)
Lastly, it will put her hands into a position that it is less likely that she will pull her arms forward as her first move.

It is a small move with perhaps big dividends. One of the questions regarding a cocking of the hands would be, "When?"
Imo, it varies. I'm including two clips. One that shows the hitter already "cocked" and one that is from face on that is "later". In the face on clip notice the tip of the barrel "moving to the camera." (later, as compared to the first clip).
2namo0j.jpg


4fu4gz.jpg


And then something else to take a peek at.
Cocked and ready.
2cx83ro.jpg
 
May 13, 2008
824
16
Regarding the coke bottle; I have no idea what would happen. The girls I work with swing bats not coke bottles. You do realize that the moment of inertia for a 24oz coke bottle is different than a 30, 31, 32 inch bat, right:confused:

Yes, of course I do. That wasn't the point, just that the actual weight is trivial compared to an average girl's strength. This girl, in particular, seems very athletic and fully capable of throwing up to 24oz without the arm straightening.

What you did say is...

Coachdan - Regarding your daughter's front elbow, I see it getting up and staying up throughout the entire swing. This is a good thing and IMO a result of how she flatten's her hands. IMO, the fact that her front arm straightens out immediately when she initiates her swing (a bad thing), is do (sic) to a poor sequence. A poor sequence will create all kinds of issues. Failure to recognize a poor sequence has caused many a parent to chase their tail trying to fix one problem, only to create another problem.

What would happen if your daughter had a sequence where her hips lead her hands, her hips grabbed her upper torso/shoulders, and her shoulders started to turn as she simultaneously flattened her hands? Do you see how this could potentially reduce the work load on her arms to swing the bat...reduce stress on the front arm...and keep her front arm from straightening at swing initiation? If a 13 year old girl swings a 20, 21, 22, 23 ounce bat using just her arms; her front arm is going to straighten.

So, to me, you blamed the "sequence" for the lead arm flattening. I contend that it is a more complex cause and effect.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off as confrontational. I actually thought you had made a good point until I started to reason it out more. The answer is more than coil and stretch. Hand path is the reason for the arm flattening. The hands need to stay in front of the back elbow.

I also liked your later post about the helicopter swings. I think that will help her incorporate the hand path and drive momentum off of the backside.
 
May 13, 2008
824
16
...from Epstein:

<snip>

"To properly stay inside the ball, the hitter must tuck their rear elbow in and down against their rib cage."

"The hitter’s rear elbow must slot close to, or rub against, their body. If the swing does not launch with the rear elbow in this position, it will not be possible for the hitter to stay inside the ball."

I don't particularly care too much for this cue from Epstein. I don't think that the rear elbow must rub up against the body. I don't think that is a hard and fast absolute.

Slaught on adjusting to pitch location...

 
Jul 20, 2010
83
6
LC ... I've read your post several times.

Very very nice!!

Help me a bit with the "timing" aspects of cocking the hands. The perspective I'm interested in is in terms of favoring the promotion of "Stretch". Basically I'm asking if you can add a bit more to topic of "when" ... especially in terms of promoting the sequence of Coil-Stretch.

I will do that.

Basically,
I see the two hitters I posted as stretched by virtue of them doing these things;
BB, because of the starting position of her hands, moves them back to around her rear shoulder, cocks the hands, strides. BUT, she does this all not in a "stacatto" fashion----- but the moves clearly overlap.
This creates stretch.

The Georgia hitter,
I don't like this description but,----she is kinda pre-set. With her hands. There is a last little ratchet of those hands right before she swings. As I see it she even has a little out of plane tip / cock of the hands / then swing. I still would call her an early wrist cock based on the angle of the bat.
The key is she has the wrists "mostly set" but during her stride she stays calm with them, she would be a classic example, imo, of walking away from the hands. Similar to Holliday.

Stretch occurs as she walks away from the hands / strides.

But are these hitters really striding to stretch or are they uncoiling to stretch?

Would a cue to cock the hands help / prompt ---Coach Dan's daughter to coil a little?
 
May 7, 2008
948
0
San Rafael, Ca
Some bat weight related motionanalysis from Zig Zigler:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum




This will cause your daughter to cast the bat. There is no reason for a girl to swing a 34 inch bat unless she is 6 ft 4in tall 190 lbs. and can do 3 sets of 15 pullups, and has a vertical leap of 34 inches. There are not many girls strong enough to swing that bat, regardless of its weight. I guarantee it. And I'll be glad to prove it.


Thats great if you have four girls that are strong enough with good balance and have no side bend to their trailing side (right side for right handed hitters). That means they have good balance. BAtting averages in softball without an explanation of what kind of pitching it is done against isn't an indicator of how well an athlete swings. Using our biomechanical analysis technology, I have analyzed over 10,000 athletes in the last year. I have spent the last 15 years developing true functionla strength and conditioning programs for athletes. 95% of those athletes lack the simplest physical component that must be present in order to swing a bat at any length. That component is balance. So base upon my research and random sampling, I can conclude that most athletes not just girls need to focus on developing their body's physical components while they try to develop their technique.

I have analyzed Candrea's athletes also and they do not have perfect swings. They do what they do better than most athletes out there because they are some of the strongest and most stable athletes that we analyzed. Not because they have the perfect swing or anything close in fact only one of his athletes did not exhibit any flaws related to balance and strength. But she was 5-10, 220 pounds. She swung a 34 inch bat, but only half of the other girls swung a bat that length. The did not swing -11s or -10s. Because they are not strong.

My research did not rely on analyzing video tapes at 30 frames per second. We put sensors on each athlete, and recorded exactly how fast each body part was moving and could see exactly what happened when in the swing.

Don't get me wrong, some of the swings were not signigicantly flawed and as a result they have made up our swing database of good characteristics. the length of a softball swing the way it is taught today is longer than a baseball swing. (By the way, earlier someone commented about wanting a girl on their team who could go from 0 to 100 in .15) That girl or guy doesn't exist. You might be able to get that on a stop watch, but our technolgy (3D-SkillCheck) measure the length of the swing and no male or female athlete has a forward swing of faster than .18 seconds.

The accuracy of our testing methods have been validated over the last 20 years by engineers and scientist at top research institutions in the US, Europe, and Japan. This is not MHO, but instead it is fact.

--------

Robin, If you have four girls that swing 34 inch bats I would like to test them and see what impact that bat has on their swing (No guessing). The .473 batting average is great in comparison to baseball averages, but that puts the girls in the 50 percentile for batting averages. We have also collected that data and many of the girls we tested had batting averages in the high .500s and even .600. The best college coaches told us that a girls batting average is the last thing they care about because the pitching at the high school level is so bad, that you could go 0 for 5 against a good pitcher and 6 for 6 against a bad pitcher (and there are more bad pitchers than good ones) and have a batting average above .500.

Let me know if you will let me come out and analyze your girls. I am from Arizona and currently in Texas making my way around the country. Where are you located.

if there are any coaches out there who would like for me to come out hook up your athletes and tell you if what you are teaching is what you are seeing I will be glad to let me know.

---------------


Jack, I had a recent discussion with Mike Epstein and can provide validity to both your interpretation of the swing based on video analysis and his based on video analysis.

I have spend the last year researching swing mechanics (analyzing over 10,000 athletes of all ages) and have come to some astonishing conclusions.

Number one is that athlete are doing exactly what they are being doing taught, whether it is right or wrong.

Second, is that athletes are not being taught correctly. (Something I am sure you have seen from your work. More importantly, the instructors are looking at the results of a specific action and forcing athletes to emphasize that result. Instead of looking at the cause of the action and teaching to the aspect of the swing.

I am not saying that over 10,000 coaches out there are wrong, just that they have focused on the wrong theing. Our technology (3D-skillcheck, which can be found at skilltechnologies.com) has allowed us to identify specific physical characteristics in the swing including hip, torso, arm/hand, and bat angular acceleration. Identify joint angles (accurately, no guessing as is the case with video), and much more. I can tell you if what an athlete does or a coach teaches is efficient and in the best interests of the athlete based on the physical strengths and weaknesses of the athlete.

You and Epstein are both almost correct on arm position. The lead arm is not straight or bent to 90 degrees at contact. It has approximately a 15 to 30 degree bend at the elbow debending on the strength of the athlete, balance, and speed of rotation of the bat. People thing the athlete is swinging a 22 to 34 ounce bat of different lengths because that's what it says on the end of the bat. But as you begin to swing the bat, rotational forces begin to act on the bat at at varying points throughout the swing, bat weight increases to well over 100 pounds (force). This means that depending on the strength of the athlete, weight may be improperly distributed through one joint or another, causing the athletes to lose balance or extend prematurely at or before contact. Coaches who teach the athlete to extend at contact forces the athlete out of sequence and thus causing a potential loss of power.

There are many factors that go into the swing and believe it or not technique only goes so far. An athlete who is in better physical shape, with more athletic ability, balance, stability, and other physical strengths, will always produce better results that the other athlete (all other things being equal--vision, pitch, mind)
 
Jul 21, 2008
414
0
Clifton, very well said. I have been working on this with her off the Tee but its not burnt into her game swing. the cue I use with her it to point the knob of the bat at the catcher when loading.

thanks for the post

Coach Dan,
I am curious about one thing with regard to your daughter. That is (and I think most here would agree) enhancing one thing could fix more than that "one thing."

So my one suggestion would be to cock the hands. Now, let me elaborate on that just a bit. Many kids when told to do this will LIFT THE ARMS. Not good. If you would like to take the time to look at Christie Fox on the model swings thread you will see an exaggerated version of cocking the hands. Not good for most but she was,,, for sure,,, able to handle it.

Now this cocking may or may not be something that she will take to very well,,,initially. But it could put her in position to have the slack in the lead arm removed PRIOR to initiation of her swing...(as referenced by Wellphyt). Not that I am promoting a "barred / locked out" lead arm, but you will likely see the lead arm extend. The big benefit really should be to get the slack out of the lead shoulder, not to simply extend the arm.

Anyway,

Let me explain the best I can thru the written word.
Cocking of the hands will likely extend her lead arm a bit.
It may lift her back elbow.
It almost certainly will put her back elbow (at the very least) BEHIND her hands. (see clips and stills)
Lastly, it will put her hands into a position that it is less likely that she will pull her arms forward as her first move.

It is a small move with perhaps big dividends. One of the questions regarding a cocking of the hands would be, "When?"
Imo, it varies. I'm including two clips. One that shows the hitter already "cocked" and one that is from face on that is "later". In the face on clip notice the tip of the barrel "moving to the camera." (later, as compared to the first clip).
2namo0j.jpg


4fu4gz.jpg


And then something else to take a peek at.
Cocked and ready.
2cx83ro.jpg


Thanks Five Frame for the clips.!
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
42,891
Messages
680,296
Members
21,617
Latest member
sharonastokes
Top