13 year old swing mechanics help!

[Wellphyt]

Thanks for all the feedback.......Tell me if I'm anywhere close on how to achieve stretch.

When taking a stride it should feel as if youi are walking away from your hands. ie hands behind back shoulder. Should this feel like the pulling back of a bow and arrow? What is the difference between stretch and seperation. I thought I knew what seperation was until this post.

The bow and arrow analogy is pretty close. When I simulate it, my front arm stays bent and I feel like my arms are working as a unit. A lot of girls will want to straighten the front arm when the hands load, which I don't like. When the hands load I want the angles in the elbows to remain relatively constant and the hands to end up close to the back armpit for swing launch.

Stretch: The hands load or cock during the stride. The feel is similar to how the throwing arm goes back as the hands separate in the overhand throw. The timing of the separation of the hands in sync with the stride when throwing overhand is the same in hitting.

Separation: Occurs when the front heel drops to trigger the hips. The hips will lead the hands by a fraction of a second. If the hips lead the hands then the hitter has created separation.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Are you saying that a "girl" can't throw a 24 oz bottle of coke with both hands unless the sequence is correct without her arms flattening out?

There has to be some conscious effort to have a good hand path. It isn't just stretch and coil.

Excellent point.

You have to deal with the hand path, front arm action, and such before the sequencing stuff will deliver value.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thanks for all the feedback.......Tell me if I'm anywhere close on how to achieve stretch.

When taking a stride it should feel as if youi are walking away from your hands. ie hands behind back shoulder. Should this feel like the pulling back of a bow and arrow? What is the difference between stretch and seperation. I thought I knew what seperation was until this post.

Sounds like you are in the ball park here.

Separation is defined in different ways. RudyJ basically describes it as moving the hands back as the lead leg moves forward. He adds a bit more ... but the basic idea is that the hands and lead leg move in opposite directions, which to Rudy is separation.

Others define separation as having the hips rotate ahead of the shoulders ... and that will be a more natural result once you get this "Stretch" worked into the swing.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt, how do you go about teaching the correct sequence. What drills do you do to correct this?

Don't laugh, but what I do is have the girls begin by mimicking a baseball pitcher throwing overhand from a full windup. They are not throwing hard. They are going through the motion in a controlled manner. Wind-up...hands break during stride...elbows bent roughly 90 degrees and arms close to level to the ground...apply force against the ground in a clockwise direction (RH player) with the back foot during the stride to promote hip cock/coil...hands and head stay back until front thigh rolls over...hands and hips then come forward together.

Once they get comfortable with that, I give them a bat and either have them throw the bat through the air for fun; or hit off of a tee (more focused intent). They go through the whole sequence including the wind-up, with two hands on the bat. When I first came up with this drill a few months ago I found it was easy for me to switch back and forth between doing the overhand throw motion with a ball and doing the overhand throw motion with a bat. The brain automatically knows where the overhand throw and swing diverge. Probably because you have two hands holding an object when hitting opposed to one when throwing. The 13 to 14 year old girls that I'm working with sometimes have to think about it for a few seconds when switching to the bat, but it's pretty easy for them also.

There are multiple benefits to doing this drill. Namely, the girls don't have to think about anything once they get the sequence down. I would challenge anyone to try it for themselves. When doing the drill do you think about, hip coil, stretch, loading the hands, balance, leading with the hips, heel plant, blah, blah, blah. I don't. I just wind up and throw the bat. I've actually experimented with my daughter hitting live wiffle ball pitching, while doing the drill. Pretty scary because the weight transfer and hip action is off the charts compared to a normal swing. The ball comes flying off the bat. The trick is for me to time my pitch to her wind-up; and then duck.

Anyways, from there it's just a matter of getting rid of the wind-up and transitioning to more of a double play throw action per Slaught.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I don't believe just focusing on the "sequence" is the whole answer. To put it into perspective here is a picture of a 24 oz bottle of coke...

Are you saying that a "girl" can't throw a 24 oz bottle of coke with both hands unless the sequence is correct without her arms flattening out?

There has to be some conscious effort to have a good hand path. It isn't just stretch and coil.

I don’t believe anyone is suggesting on working on just sequence.

That said, I believe there is more efficient payback to getting kids in a proper sequence and then adding points of emphasis.

And yes … there needs to be a good hand path. It isn’t just coil & stretch. Agree completely. A tight HPP and good hand path is a must … and I’d stress that quickly after getting the sequence in order.

IMO, people make this more difficult by working on enhancements prior to working on a suitable sequence. It’s so much easier to develop a swing once the basic sequence is happening.

 

[lclifton]

Coach Dan,
I am curious about one thing with regard to your daughter. That is (and I think most here would agree) enhancing one thing could fix more than that "one thing."

So my one suggestion would be to cock the hands. Now, let me elaborate on that just a bit. Many kids when told to do this will LIFT THE ARMS. Not good. If you would like to take the time to look at Christie Fox on the model swings thread you will see an exaggerated version of cocking the hands. Not good for most but she was,,, for sure,,, able to handle it.

Now this cocking may or may not be something that she will take to very well,,,initially. But it could put her in position to have the slack in the lead arm removed PRIOR to initiation of her swing...(as referenced by Wellphyt). Not that I am promoting a "barred / locked out" lead arm, but you will likely see the lead arm extend. The big benefit really should be to get the slack out of the lead shoulder, not to simply extend the arm.

Anyway,

Let me explain the best I can thru the written word.
Cocking of the hands will likely extend her lead arm a bit.
It may lift her back elbow.
It almost certainly will put her back elbow (at the very least) BEHIND her hands. (see clips and stills)
Lastly, it will put her hands into a position that it is less likely that she will pull her arms forward as her first move.

It is a small move with perhaps big dividends. One of the questions regarding a cocking of the hands would be, "When?"
Imo, it varies. I'm including two clips. One that shows the hitter already "cocked" and one that is from face on that is "later". In the face on clip notice the tip of the barrel "moving to the camera." (later, as compared to the first clip).

And then something else to take a peek at.
Cocked and ready.

Thanks Five Frame for the clips.!

 

[cshilt]

I don’t believe anyone is suggesting on working on just sequence.

I really didn't think so. His previous statement, however, seemed to indicate that was what was causing the arms to flatten out. I just don't think that is the right cause and effect.

 

[cshilt]

...It almost certainly will put her back elbow (at the very least) BEHIND her hands. (see clips and stills)
Lastly, it will put her hands into a position that it is less likely that she will pull her arms forward as her first move...

I like this suggestion a lot. Keep the hands in front of the back elbow.

IMO, the lead elbow really helps determine the hand path. Howard has a saying, a mantra (if you will), that goes; "where the (lead) elbow is, the hands will be."

 

[Chris O'Leary]

IMO, people make this more difficult by working on enhancements prior to working on a suitable sequence. It’s so much easier to develop a swing once the basic sequence is happening.

In my experience, it's much more effective to remove issues like sequencing from the mix and get the upper body working correctly.

Sequencing leads to power, but upper body leads to solid contact, and you have to have solid contact before you start worrying about power.

 

[cshilt]

Once they get comfortable with that, I give them a bat and either have them throw the bat through the air for fun; or hit off of a tee (more focused intent).

I really like helicopter swings as well. It gives a good sense of using the arms and hands. Like you said, it is a lot of fun to throw that bat.