Throwing

[FiveFrameSwing]

I should add ... that I've seen many kids taught the "L". I have even seen kids momentarily get their throw correct, and include TE, ... but have their throwing arm bend to an angle less than 90-degrees in the process ... ... ... and then observe the coach/instructor "correct" the kids mechanics and increase the angle of their throwing arm to an "L", .... .... .... and in the process I would see the kids abort thoracic extension, and not build the stretch running from their lower back to their shoulder, and basically attempt to power their throw via rotation/spin ... and then make repeated attempts trying to muscle the throw instead of whip ... I suppose the thought being that if you are going to do it wrong, and if isn't going to work well, then you might as well extend a lot of effort in a losing cause ......... sort of like a batter swinging out of their shoes and yet being largely ineffective ... some think they just need to spin/rotate harder.

IMO the "L" that is commonly taught can be a detriment ... and in fact I've seen it employed to make kids worse.

This drill below ... think twice before you pass it along to kids.

Just because you see a big name individual demonstrating a slow-motion action, doesn't mean the action is correct and that the action doesn't warrant follow-up verification. Be wary of slow-motion demonstrations ... many incorrect, and ill conceived actions, can be performed in slow-motion. Apply the Hanson Principle to throwing mechanics much like you would to hitting mechanics.

 

[Alan Snedeker]

and in the process I would see the kids abort thoracic extension, and not build the stretch running from their lower back to their shoulder, and basically attempt to power their throw via rotation/spin ... and then make repeated attempts trying to muscle the throw instead of whip ... .

I have a girl on my 10U team that does this now. She uses rotation and thoracic flexion to throw the ball. She has a strong throw, but like you say it seems like she muscles the ball. She complains of shoulder pain often.

Thanks to this tread I finally have my DD throwing correctly. She is now staying connected and externally rotating after front leg starts roll over. Also when she uses proper thoracic extension she throws much harder. It just looks more natural now.

I vote for this thread being a sticky.

Thanks everyone. I've learned a lot from this thread.

 

[Mr T]

My view is that the pinching of the scap is something that occurs as a 'result', and not something that needs to be taught.

One thing I found interesting from Hodge is the observation that the shoulder turns as a unit when externally rotated (in the L)

He was talking about the front arm. I am weak at kinesiology, but trying to figure this out a bit. It seems that when you externally rotate immediately, i.e. break your arms improperly as Hodge says, you get no scap load.

Yes, if you simply break your arms properly this is a no teach. However, I am trying to break the L habit and the #1 problem unsurprisingly is premature external rotation, they of course still go up into the L, even some of them who are basically doing everything else correctly including starting to get some TE.

I am wondering if scap loading provides any power for the basic throw.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

MrT, the feeling I believe you are describing takes place naturally when you avoid external rotation with the rear upper arm until after you trigger the lead thigh ... and it takes place with, or slightly after TE. That is, you will feel that pinch if you trigger with the lead thigh, TE and allow external rotation of the throwing arm to take place.

I know what you are describing. I see it all the time. People going to an "L" way early ... externally rotating, sort of triggering with their front leg, then TEing and continuing to basically ER their rear arm. That's sort of what you see with Tewk's kid in this thread. Then of course is the sling shooter ... someone that goes right into ER with their throwing arm and attempt to catapult it forward ... something I see way too often also.

 

[02Crush]

okay so I have been watching this thread for a while and learned quite a bit. And in an effort to play devils advocate...
Most all the examples here are of baseball and when a softball example is used it is of an outfielder making a long in for an
out at home...So considering we are a SOFTBALL forum....Does anyone think that actually committing that much of your body in motion
to where your are laid out over your leg almost to the ground possibly too long to actually get the ball from SS to 1st in time for an out on a runner hitting the base path of 60' at about 2.3-2.5 seconds.....Just curious the opinions/knowledge and perspectives. Not meant to be an dumb question but to motivate through, restart the thread a bit and see what adjustments people think may need to be made for an infielder versus outfielder in the throw? If at all.....I look forward to the onslaught that ensues as I am certain some of you will teach me something.

 

[redhotcoach]

Hop and separate

rear leg down and in, upper resist. lower unload while upper loads.

throw.

11111111111111111

 

[RayR]

The moment the forearm starts to roll up - the back leg triggers....the resistance is gone....

So, placing the players in the big L position just zapped all of the key move out of them...

 

[drc9805]

Wow! I just read this whole thread and there is some very good stuff here!! Besides the emphasis of TE, I believe the only thing Wellphyt said different was that externally rotating the arm too early is not good for the shoulder. I feel like everyone agreed the Tewks girl was out of sync (externally rotating too early). I think everybody agreed the angle of the arm moves through the L angle to a lesser angle. Once again, a discussion where everyone is saying the same thing or so it seemed to me but who knows...lol!

I do seem to agree this full blown motion applies to outfielders more than infielders especially in softball but I would like to hear comments about this.

 

[Perfect Circle]

FFS,
Hodge Trigger Drill is that on AB site?Seen this mentioned before.Where can I find info on this or get an explaination?

Did you get an answer to this ??? I wanta see it too... thx

 

[jryan15]

Man, 17 days and no updates... I've been anxiously awaiting more discussion on this topic. I'd hoped by now someone would have posted a full drill set so we can teach our kids how to feel and recreate thoratic extension!

I've been testing arching my back while trying to create thoratic extension. I feel like the feeling of stretch is a result of leading with my hips while resisting with my upper body. I feel like this is the extension that is being discussed.

In general, I rarely utilize good form in my throws (speed and power are lacking as a result). It is not intentional, I just tend to power everything with my upper body. I've always been big and strong enough to pull it off well enough to not be properly corrected. There have been times that I think that I have felt the power of thoratic extension.

I recall a few times when playing third base. I snag a hard hit ball down the line. I'm a righty so this would have my glove crossing my body. Knowing the runner is fast, and a play needs to happen quick, the following actions seem to occur subconsciously.

1. Initial position - My upper body is twisted back as I just reached across to grab the ball. My lower body is also coiled about my rear leg. This is probably because I didn't have time to take a step and open my right leg to field the ball.

2. At this point while I'm torqued, my lower half fires and takes over with power and speed. I don't intentionally resist with my upper body, but my hips seem to fire so quickly that my upper body is lagging the motion... This seems to create stretch (or what I hope would be thoratic extension).

Note that had I been in this position but had a slow runner and time to throw. I would have made a more relaxed and controlled throw to first. I think that my normal motion would not have caused my hips to fire so quickly, and I would have simply turned my upper body to throw the ball...

3. Continuing from step 2: As my lower half drives and turns, my upper body eventually connects with it. My upper body now starts turning, but not because it's activated, but seemly because it's out of range of movement and is being dragged around by my lower half (This seems to further increase stretch).

4. Once all of this happens, it seems that my upper body "catches up". I then power through and release a rocket throw that is harder than I could ever intentionally thrown...

5. As the ball shoots like a laser 2 ft over the 1st basemen's head... over two fences... into an adjacent field, all that I can think is where the heck did that come from . The next week I throw my shoulder out trying to recreate the throw while not realizing that despite "getting sideways" to my target, I'm still entirely powering the throws with only my upper body.


I put all of this together to pose the question. Is "thoratic extension" a natural result that will occur when the lower half fires with the power and speed that it is capable of?