Throwing

[FiveFrameSwing]

Oh, and also, do you agree with my claim that the Tewks girl is not that far ahead of the girl in the outfield clip? Do you have a particular opinion about the arm externally rotating at a particular moment during the sequence, or do you think there is some play?

Regarding the girl that Tewks worked with .....

In the 'after' demonstration the external rotation of the throwing arm begins prior to external rotation of the front femur ... Wellphyt is correct with his description of that. From memory of Tewks' demonstration ... he didn't care about that, and looked at the throw more from a 're-direction' viewpoint. Interestingly enough, when Tewks demonstrated the throw based on a 're-direction' vantage point, he maintained the relationship of triggering with external rotation of his lead thigh prior to external rotation of his throwing arm. It may have been a coincidence, I don't know ... but Tewks' demonstration was in sequence, and this girl is out of sequence in terms of external rotation of the rear arm following external rotation of the lead leg.

Given the 'before' video, it looks like it would have been easy enough to have the external rotation of the lead thigh lead the external rotation of the throwing arm ... the kid was basically damping the lead thigh trigger and lacking TE. For whatever reason the throw ended up as you see ... with external rotation of the throwing arm leading external rotation of the lead thigh.

 

[Mr T]

Maybe the thread is dying out. Very helpful for me though. If you don't think TE is important Well, fine enough but I think you're really missing a key aspect of the throw.

Also, I thought I was pretty explicit that I did see that the Tewk girl is premature.

However, it still seems almost clownish to me the collage you made where you put the Tewks girl by throwers who were clearly not as far along as she was. The frame I chose the foot is turning, the foot is nearly fully turned 1 frame later and lands 1 frame after that. Your pictures the throwers are not that far along. Can you really not see that?

I also just pointed out the Japanese outfielder is externally rotating before fully rolling the thigh. I didn't claim any thing about what you said or what Hodge would say about that, merely that is factual and you had offered it up as an example of perfect synchronization.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The Japanese outfielder in question is initially triggering with her lead thigh prior to externally rotating her throwing arm.

 

[redhotcoach]

2 cents:
I read thread everyday and find it very interesting. I have got to know an ex mlb pitcher and a minor league coach in the last year. They don't know any of this stuff. So imo either side of this arguement is beyond the knowledge of 99.9 % of us.

 

[Greenmonsters]

2 cents:
I read thread everyday and find it very interesting. I have got to know an ex mlb pitcher and a minor league coach in the last year. They don't know any of this stuff. So imo either side of this arguement is beyond the knowledge of 99.9 % of us.

Excellent point, RHC! Many elite performers have no idea what they do or how they actually do it and therefore make lousy coaches or instructors.

 

[redhotcoach]

Excellent point, RHC! Many elite performers have no idea what they do or how they actually do it and therefore make lousy coaches or instructors.

I have definately learned that coaching the pros isn't the same plan as teaching the youth.

 

[Mr T]

The Japanese outfielder in question is initially triggering with her lead thigh prior to externally rotating her throwing arm.

I suggest you and Well go back and read my post 104 carefully. I am not saying the Japanese player doesn't externally rotate prior to starting to roll.

I don't say the Tewks girl is in synch.

My points were self-admittedly nitpicks. Yet another review of them:

The arm externally rotates for the Japanese player as she starts to roll the thigh.

The collage that Well posted shows various players who are far upstream of the Tewks girl. The Tewks girl is 2 frames from having the front foot planted. The other players are not.

When I posted the Tewks girl and the Japanese player my point is that they are both close to landing and both have started to roll the thigh.

Yes, the Tewks girl in fact got there way before, I am just being OCD and pointing out that the frame presented was not the best frame to make the point. The point which I fully understand and agree with BTW.

Let's go back to Wells initial response on this thread:

If you throw correctly naturally, you will find that during the stride your front leg/foot stays relatively closed or internally rotated. However, check out what happens just before your front foot lands. Your front thigh should roll over automatically. This is an unconscious action that few understand. It's so unconscious that most of us have no idea we do it. It only took me 48 years to discover it.

In my opinion, 2 frames prior to full foot plant is "just before you land."

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

So if I understand the 'disagreement', if there is a 'disagreement', then it's basically that Wellphyt doesn't see the relevance of TE.

To me it is somewhat similar to the elastic stretch, or SnF analogy, in hitting ... where the spine bends and the shoulders resist forward rotation (and hence the lateral tilt) as the lower body running start is under way. Some describe both ends of the elastic as being controlled. Somewhat similar situation in the throw ... where the lead leg trigger action can be related to the lower body running start in hitting, and TE & ER can be related to the resistance applied to the upper end of the elastic/stretch. Just as one 'throws/releases' in hitting, one 'throws/releases' in throwing ... where the upper end of the elastic stretch is released as part of the throwing action.

 

[Mr T]

Thanks for getting this back on track Five. Great post! I won't belabor my minutia any further. This is the main issue. Is TE important or not?

I am convinced it is. I guess a further question is, is it a teach? I am believing yes, for some players, especially girls, this needs to be worked on.

I have another question for you. What are your views on scapular loading? Does taking the ball behind the head as is done in the Tewks drill eliminate any scapular loading and if so, and if it is important, does this drill need to be followed up with another drill perhaps to work the arm?

BTW, the Tewks girl is out of synch but I don't feel the Tewks drill we see her do necessarily forces early external rotation. Do you agree with that?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

For many, thoracic extension needs to be taught.

My view is that the pinching of the scap is something that occurs as a 'result', and not something that needs to be taught.

In the drill Tewks performs he states that he doesn't really focus on internal and external rotation of the throwing arm. He is more concerned with re-direction. In his demonstration he got the sequence correct in terms of external rotation of the lead leg, followed by external rotation of the throwing arm. The girl does re-direct, as Tewks described, but her sequence is opposite ... that is she initiates external rotation of the throwing arm and then externally rotates the lead leg. Probably should point out that the girl is performing a different drill ... but her sequence is notably different.