Pitching rule change

[riseball]

On what planet? That is ludicrous.

You would have to be very naive to believe that type of thing hasn't or doesn't happen.

Bad coaching happens all the time. Does not mean it is right. It is one thing to have your best push the envelope make a mistake and get caught once in blue moon. But what you describe is just dumb softball.

 

[slingnit]

Bad coaching happens all the time. Does not mean it is right. It is one thing to have your best push the envelope make a mistake and get caught once in blue moon. But what you describe is just dumb softball.

Happens at every level, including top D1 programs just like leaping. Not saying it is right or wrong just one of things that happens all the time. Just like holding in football, elbows and traveling in basketball, etc... Legal or not they are parts of the game and you either have to enforce the rules any time it is noticed or get rid of the rule altogether and that has the major point from some.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Then it's a crow drag and legal in ASA (IRRC, one of those ABCs, was it in this thread, getting too long?) and not a crow hop. I was not being technical with the rules, just saying that for the illegal ones that are called, the feet are in the air on both. Crow drags are not called in HS either even if illegal by the rules.

The reasoning is you can't drag and then put weight down to replant with any additional force. That quip from the ABC has been posted here a lot so I am sure everyone knows it. In fact you would have to have air to get the replant down. Just my opinion and that ABC's opinion.

That explanation was only why they won't call a crow hop (i.e. replant) after a drag. It didn't define a crow hop. As I posted before, it is a leap once both feet are in the air.

Crow hops generally occur when the pivot foot moves forward off the pitching plate and replants BEFORE the pitcher moves their stride foot (aka gym step).

 

[SoCal_Dad]

REALLY?? So EVERY coach and base runner ever lacks integrity! What are they told? Leave early until you get caught, then don't leave as early.

Hyperbolize much? There is a wide range between coaching players to not be too conservative (i.e. leaving well after) and leaving as early as they can without being caught.

You do raise a good analogy because there are a lot of similarities.
- Enforcement varies by the #umpires and the presence/location of runners.
- As MTR posted, umpires should only call it when they're sure there was a violation. Once an umpire thinks they saw a violation, they'll likely look harder on subsequent pitches to verify what they think they saw.
- Enforcement varies by the magnitude of the violation and what occurs on the pitch. IME, the threshold for leaving early is much lower when the runner is stealing.

IMO, varying the coaching/playing situationally by how likely they are going to get called for it is an indicator of their integrity. It doesn't make them a bad coach/player, but it does reveal a little about their character and brings into question where they draw the line on more important things.

 

[slingnit]

Hyperbolize much?.

No, we are Protestant.

 

[Ajaywill]

The rule as it stands is defective primarily because the punishment doesn't fit the crime, so umpires are reluctant to call it. That leads to it becoming inconsistent across the country and even between games, tournaments and umpires. It is unfair on the umpires as well as the players.

There are two simple solutions that could be considered:
1) allow leaping (but not crowhopping)
2) reduce the penalty to just a 'ball' and get rid of the advance base part.

I prefer solution 2) because it enables the umpires to call it at all levels and more often. And more importantly at younger ages before their mechanics are entrenched. It is also consistent with the rest of the rules - a bad pitch is a 'ball'. There is no reason that a runner on third should be able to score because the pitchers foot lifted off the rubber (unless it the illegal pitch causes a force advance through a walk).

Solution 1) is somewhat appealing because frankly there isn't enough pitching already and although leaping may primarily be caused because of bad mechanics (I somewhat disagree but whatever), there is not enough good pitching instructors and the expectations for having to have pro instruction for all levels is unrealistic (economically).

Both of these changes were proposed for JO softball at the ASA National Council Meeting last month.

Two things came out that defeated the leaping proposal - the anatomical differences between Men's and Women's pitchers (I don't have the details) and the fact that many ASA people were reluctant to make this change unilaterally and wanted to wait until NCAA and/or NFHS was on board.

As far as the elimination of the awarded base on an illegal pitch, the prevailing sentiment was that the penalty should remain to help deter the illegal pitch. To me, this reasoning is a Catch-22. Keep the penalty to deter the illegal pitch, but many umpires won't call the illegal pitch with runners on base because the penalty is too severe. The awarded base is related to the baseball balk rule. The penalty is appropriate for baseball since runners are allowed to lead off the base and a balk is primarily an advantage gained by the pitcher over the base runner. In FP softball with no leading off, the illegal pitch is only a potential advantage to the pitcher over the batter. The base runner is not affected at all since they can't leave the base until the ball is released. The penalty of an awarded base is not appropriate to FP softball.

I have observed that when major changes to the ASA rules are proposed, it often takes a few years for the council to really think them through and be convinced to pass them. I think that these two changes fall into that category and will go through within the next few years.

 

[KCPRK]

REALLY?? So EVERY coach and base runner ever lacks integrity! What are they told? Leave early until you get caught, then don't leave as early.

I was at a clinic with the current WCWS championship coach. They specifically said: "Leave early-push the boundaries of it until you are called for it. then you'll know how early you can get away with. If your not looking for a competitive edge then your not coaching and doing your players an injustice."

There are differing schools of thought on everything. There is right and wrong and then there is competitive sports.

 

[KCPRK]

Cowards should not be officials.

Wheres the line between coward and fitting in? If your an umpire at a showcase and you want to be the hardcore one calling every IP do you think youll be asked back? Do you really think no college coach is going to complain about you "not being there for the girls to be seen"? What about peer pressure-you are going to follow your colleagues in that tournament as well as the direction of your UIC.

I agree with a lot of what you say RB and I agree with the principal of your argument but I feel you have never been part of a team of officials as noted above. I know that youd be the odd man out with such aggressive and vocal opinions. Not saying its right or wrong-just saying its Human Nature.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

Have you ever become so disgusted with seeing your DD work hard to drag and stay legal only to face a pitcher that does it all wrong and brought it to umps attention. If so, what did the ump say when you pointed it out?

I used to always bring it up. Inbetween innings I would tell the ump (when I was coaching) or tell our coach (when I became a parent in the crowd).

Ump responses range from:
1. Complete ignorance to even considering applying the rules 75% (which I am sure was hiding one of the next two)
2. Appearing unaware of the rules 12%
3. Appearing to misinterpret the rules 12%
4. Almost getting gang-killed by the entire other team (me and the poor 1st base ump that I coaxed into calling it) Luckily small%

 

[riseball]

Wheres the line between coward and fitting in? If your an umpire at a showcase and you want to be the hardcore one calling every IP do you think youll be asked back? Do you really think no college coach is going to complain about you "not being there for the girls to be seen"? What about peer pressure-you are going to follow your colleagues in that tournament as well as the direction of your UIC.

I agree with a lot of what you say RB and I agree with the principal of your argument but I feel you have never been part of a team of officials as noted above. I know that youd be the odd man out with such aggressive and vocal opinions. Not saying its right or wrong-just saying its Human Nature.

Showcases are non-competitive events and a different animal. We all play fast and loose with rules in a showcase to accomplish the end goal. The ones that don't fit in think there is a piece of plastic, juice boxes and cup cakes if the win it all. An ASA qualifier is a different matter. You need to have the stones to make the call even if it is unpopular.