Look Back Rule

[Westwind]

Sigh.

Yes it is. That’s what “gawd awful “ means in case you need a translation from Midwest English. And yet it’s a better 18u team that has actually won at PGF nationals that screwed up a simple bunt coverage. Probably 95% d1 commits on the field in that game.

Hey, just curious, what level of softball are you around? Do you ever play teams like bandits, aces, mojo etc?

 

[BradyC87]

Total Catch 22.

When you let that runner go to 2, she likely ends up scoring too. It was ugly but they did get an out and probably prevented one run.

Would have had a better chance at a double play or getting the out at home if the pitcher throws it to 2B standing closer to the runner at around 40 seconds in the video.

 

[Comp]

Sorry, but that video is just plain really really bad defense. It is not that hard to defend that play, pitcher cannot throw the ball that early, have to wait for the runner to get closer to 2nd and then they need to be crisp sharp throws. The runner at 3rd is exactly what I said previously, if you dont get the lookback rule started that runner can just stand off the base as far as she wants.

 

[erniekru]

Look, I get it, the play can create confusion. High level D1 committed athletes can make errors too, but that is not an example of good defense or good execution. There's three separate layers of bad timing and bad throws. Pitcher is off, timing of 2B to 1B throw is late, and throw from 1B to catcher is off target.

We practice the situation of 1st and 3rd ALL the time. We actually gave up runs to it this weekend, but we also made outs too. I haven't seen a continuation play run after a walk in 2 years. DD plays 2nd year 14u against top tier teams.

 

[BradyC87]

Look, I get it, the play can create confusion. High level D1 committed athletes can make errors too, but that is not an example of good defense or good execution. There's three separate layers of bad timing and bad throws. Pitcher is off, timing of 2B to 1B throw is late, and throw from 1B to catcher is off target.

We practice the situation of 1st and 3rd ALL the time. We actually gave up runs to it this weekend, but we also made outs too. I haven't seen a continuation play run after a walk in 2 years. DD plays 2nd year 14u against top tier teams.

Don't forget the initial throw to 1st base which was an easy out being off too.

 

[Big Daddy Michigan]

Sorry, but that video is just plain really really bad defense. It is not that hard to defend that play, pitcher cannot throw the ball that early, have to wait for the runner to get closer to 2nd and then they need to be crisp sharp throws. The runner at 3rd is exactly what I said previously, if you dont get the lookback rule started that runner can just stand off the base as far as she wants.

This is 100% my experience & the way we defended it. Use LBR to force the runner to be stopped on 3rd. P moves toward the back of circle with ball in glove. I had my pitchers turn their backs on the girl at third. They often get froggy and start to sneak off the base, which is the best defense. They are out and the batter gets sent back to first. Otherwise the pitcher waits until the runner is about 2/3 steps from the base and makes a quick throw. SS covering tags and turns toward the plate. If your SS can't nail a runner, who was at a dead stop, at the plate from second base you need a new SS.

So few teams make the play at second that the runner on 3rd is rarely prepared to run on the throw. Once they know you're going to throw to second (if it happened a second time) that's when the runner on third often gets jumpy and leaves early and violates the LBR.

The most important thing is you have to practice the hell out of this to get the timing down, but it works. I'd sometimes tell umpires how we were going to defend it just so they'd watch the girl on 3rd during the LBR.

 

[testandor]

I believe all of you who have said that there are top notch teams that do this. Westwind made a very strong pitch for its effectiveness when done correctly. And I will take him up on his suggestion to watch Bandits games on YouTube. In speaking of base running pressure, I should say that if you're a coach who runs the bases with abandon, then you're my kind of coach! In my 20 years of coaching travel and HS varsity, I had 3 teams (all 14U travel) who I could do that with - and I did! Plenty! You're right, it's not a one time thing. I ran all the time, and didn't give two shoots if they were thrown out. We stole way more than we were caught, and forced tons of errors and just plain misjudgments by pressured defensive players. But without trying to argue the point, I'd like to make the case for the other side of this one particular offensive play - for what I've been saying. For the record, I umpired 115 games last year for my major assigner (175 in all), and almost all of them were 18U so called “college showcases”, and always a PGF National Qualifier every year. I’ve done over 60 in this shortened season. I have never seen this play attempted in any of those games. My other games from other assigners include rec league. I see it plenty there. So, with all due respect, my firm opinion is that this is run almost exclusively by coaches who know – or who have strong reason to believe – that the defense they’re facing is not competent to know what to do, nor have the talent to perform what they must to stop it. Again, no argument here, please! But like the forum states, I’d just like to Discuss Fast Pitch!



Let's leave the few exceptions to the rule out of this discussion for the moment. Why should how you run that one offensive play have anything to do with its success? It doesn’t! I submit to you that it is only how the defense defends that play that matters, because - quite frankly - the offense has absolutely no control at all when running that play. None! Comp described it perfectly earlier. Catcher has to get the ball right back to the pitcher, and the pitcher has to get toward the back of the circle, nearest 2B. As soon as the BR touches 1B, the pitcher watches the runner on 3rd. If she’s still on the bag, then she’s stuck there until the pitcher releases her. And now all the attention turns to the BR who – unless she stops and returns to 1B – is committed to running straight to 2B. Against a prepared defense, this part is a suicide mission!



There are only 3 skills that you need to shut down this offensive play.

1. A pitcher who can make a short (35’?) throw to a fielder running in front of her from left to

right at full speed.

2. A fielder who can catch a short throw on the dead run and immediately pivot to her right

to make a normal, balanced throw to the plate.

3. Something you should already have – a defense that, once they’ve got a lead runner

hung up between bases, will (almost?) always get the out.



Let’s first address Part 1 - nailing a BR on a suicide mission. While there are variations, let’s assume that the runner on 3B is on that bag when the BR hits 1st. I never liked making the out on the BR by getting it at the 2B bag. Why make that play right next to the only safe haven that runner has within 20 yards in either direction? Make it somewhere midway between 1B & 2B. I have my SS or my CF set up near the lip of the grass, on a line that runs directly from 1B thru the 2B bag and straight on into the grass. Once the BR hits the bag at 1st, that fielder runs full speed right thru 2B and right at that runner. The timing of the fielder starting to run is dependent on the speed of the BR on her way to 1B and on to 2B. At the speed of an average trot to 2B, the fielder starts when the BR hits 1B. Adjust accordingly. The idea is to make the tag at about the midway point between 1st & 2nd. The timing and, of course, the accuracy of the throw from the P is important. Throwing too soon releases the runner from 3B before the defense is ready to deal with her, while throwing too late can allow the BR to get right by the fielder who has turned her head away from the BR to catch the throw, or even an obstruction call with a collision before the fielder has the ball. But it’s an easily learned skill, taking maybe 15 minutes out of your practice time. Not just one practice – but a regular part of most practices. And believe me, there is no way that the BR can reverse her course in time versus a hard charging fielder coming from the opposite direction.



Now on to the 2nd part. Assuming Part 1 has been accomplished, Part 2 – while not as easy or certain - is also relatively easy. With a runner on 3rd and a ground ball to SS, do you have a SS who can throw a strike to the plate? Assuming you do, then she can complete Part 2 of this play after tagging out the BR. At that point, she needs to either 1) stop, pivot to her right and make the throw home, or 2) she can take several more strides as she makes the turn toward home plate, and then fire home on the move. Either way, there’s plenty of time to make that throw home to get the out. In fact, there’s so much time that the runner will usually be way off the plate and will turn back toward 3rd, with her only hope being a run down. At this point, if the runner is hoping for the run down, and you as the defensive coach are not thrilled, then just don’t bother defending this in the first place. If you can’t defend the play, don’t try!



My point in all of this is that there is no valid reason to run this offensive play unless you’re relatively sure that the defense can’t make standard plays. In rec league, it is a bully coach’s move. The nit wit coach runs it, watches the young kids throw the ball around, and then does it again because he thinks he’s hot sh*t. At the older levels, that’s not the case. If they run it, it’s usually because they think they might take the defense by surprise. But so what? Stop them once and then you won’t see them try it again. Again, I love to push the defense, with lots of running and bunting and slapping. When my batter walks with a runner on 3B, and I respect the defense I’m playing, it’s so much easier to just steal 2nd on the first pitch to the next batter. That play takes so much more time! A pitch of 43’ to the catcher, a momentary but still time wasting catch/throw exchange from the C before she throws 85’ down to 2B. How much time do you want to chalk that up for? Whatever your educated assessment of the time it takes to do all that, it’s much less than the 35’ throw I described. Use that extra time to steal the base. One last thing. Someone mentioned doing this with 2 outs. To that I say, try it once against any team that can run this defense, and you will either never try it again, or for some reason unbeknownst to me, you will run into an out and an inning prematurely finished over and over again until you do stop trying it.



Thanks again for letting me ramble, but I loved teaching defense to kids, and since I’m no longer coaching, the next best thing is discussing fast pitch. I see there’s a video up now. I’ll watch it tomorrow and comment. Maybe I’ll be wrong.

 

[Westwind]

It is AN example, not the best example.

Kind of sorry I went to the trouble of finding it.

Gee whiz, wonder if the error happened because they knew what a disaster it is to let these players onto the bases. I think they call it “putting pressure on the defense”.

Beating the Bandits always seems do-able. You get to the third or fourth inning with a 0-0 score and you thing “they are just another team.” Then your pitcher walks one or a runner gets on with a hit or an E. Then all hell breaks loose.

What I am NOT going to do is spend time looking for better examples. I just posted one that I screen recorded at some point while I was watching a game a couple years ago. I recorded it for a purpose I don’t remember.

 

[Westwind]

This is what we were talking about…. Seems like any decent 14u team should be able to defend this, lol. The defense in the SEC tournament championship game is NEVER as good as what you see in a local “A” U-Trip tournament, lol

Okay, now that I got the snark out of my system, the pitcher had an opportunity to shut off this play. Step one would have been for Hightower to take two steps backward and get in the circle. The runner at 3 then has to *begin to go back to 3 and the batter runner has to do something besides stand there.

This is a first and third. Nothing more. It happens all the time. Could be a walk, could be an infield hit with defensive indifference, how you get to it, with a live ball that is not at first base just doesn’t matter.

The Look Back Rule is in effect when the Pitcher has the ball In The Circle and is not Attempting To Make A Play and the Batter Runner has Reached First Base.

(Disclaimer: NCAA LBR is slightly less restrictive but this is completely consistent with common youth sanctions.)

 

[TomD]

I've been coaching 12u rec league softball for a couple years now with kids who are all new to softball in the same time frame, I thought I understood the Look Back Rule but after a couple calls last weekend I'm not sure. We had two games where our batter drew a walk, ran full speed to first, turned without slowing down or stopping and ran to second. Both times the umps and opposing coaches conferred and sent our runner back to first based on the pitcher having had the ball in the circle prior to the runner reaching first. I'm fairly certain that the umps made the wrong call there but in reading a number of threads on the topic it appears that the rule is much more complicated than I thought. I have a question and a few assumptions I'd like to confirm.

• I can't figure out the difference between the Look Back Rule and Continuation Rule for a walk. If a runner is heading to a base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, are they always allowed to continue to the next base or does this only apply to the batter who walked continuing to second?
• Once the pitcher has the ball in the circle the runner is allowed one and only one direction change and it must be without hesitating or stutter stepping. If the runner is already stopped they must immediately select a direction and move, however they can go at any pace.
• The runner is allowed one and only one stop after the Look Back Rule is in effect, they can use that stop at any time when they are not on a base.
• The pitcher must have control of the ball, both feet on or in the circle, and not be making any throwing motion in order for the Look Back Rule to apply.

Thanks