IR and Spin

[bjenkins24]

Question! When my daughter started pitching a few years ago I was reading through the forum and came upon all the IR stuff. We looked really hard for an IR pitching coach, and feel like we found one. But before we did find one we spent a few months working through the drills I saw on the forum. That seems to have worked out pretty well and now we have a pitching coach that she really likes that didn't really change anything major that we learned from this forum, so I thought we were good to go.

Fast forward a bit she's 11 now, her pitching coach will talk about how we need to work on the spin on her fastball. Her coach doesn't push it too much, because my daughter seems to be doing pretty well I'm assuming with what she's got. But I figured now that it's summer and we have more time we can really work on it. Her pitching coach is expecting 12-6 spin. So we tape the ball and the tape should stay pretty straight.

Well it doesn't. And the only way we can seem to get it straight is if she pulls her arm to her side and does some wrist flick stuff. Then she can get it straight every time, but she loses a ton of speed. She's throwing about 47 and then it goes to something like 40-41 with the "right" spin. Anyways I thought it was just a "we gotta figure it out" type of thing. Then I see this post on facebook today:

https://fb.watch/spbtM-sJcv/

It looks like the video of the girl is how the pitching coach wants my daughter to look like. The video of the coach is, I'm pretty sure, how she is throwing now. But I think it causes her spin to be not exactly straight.

Is that to be expected, or is she maybe doing something else wrong? Should we be looking for really straight spin? Or is it reasonable that it's kind of released on the side a bit? I just read IR in the classroom again, and again makes me think her spin is wrong.

I'm a little worried the way we are trying to fix it is getting her to push the ball and more HE like than IR. We've come so far I don't want to go backwards.

tldr; Should we be stressing really straight spin? If so, how can I get her to do that without pushing the ball? Here is a semi recent video of her now. I doubt the spin is super clear, but just know if there were tape on the ball it definitely wouldn't be going straight:

Google Photos

photos.google.com

 

[DNeeld]

If you grip the ball with the middle finger running with the stripe, or with the stripe between the index and middle finger, IR will produce 12/6 spin just fine. The spin axis will be slightly canted, so the stripe will face a little to the left from the catchers perspective, but the spin will be 12/6.

This thread explains it better than me.

What do I Mean

When I say "Get the Ball Spinning to the Right"......... From I/R Classroom thread.......... IE the forearm/wrist turning over toward the LH batter, and the ball spinning right toward the RH batter (RH'r). This tells me that the student is working INTO the snap during the learning process. And...

www.discussfastpitch.com

 

[Lance Steckler]

tight and proper spin makes pitches move. Bullet spin actually helps ball stay straight. And unless, pitcher is just too fast, movement is good to help prevent solid contact.

Keep working on proper mechanics to achieve better spin orientation.

 

[cnardone]

Spin is the symptom, not the cause. As you have found out already, be careful of chasing the symptom. Continue to work on her form with an eye on the spin. As her form improves so will the spin.

 

[PJR202]

Spin is the symptom, not the cause. As you have found out already, be careful of chasing the symptom. Continue to work on her form with an eye on the spin. As her form improves so will the spin.

I wish people would REALLY think about that. People give advice about all sorts of things, but especially in the pitching world. They'll say things like "she needs to stay tall," or "her drag needs to be on the toes," or "needs front side resistance" without acknowledging (or realizing) that her posture or drag, etc aren't the problem. As you said...they're symptoms.

It's like...WHY is she dragging on the side of her foot? It's because she's too low. Why is she too low? Because she doesn't have sufficient drive. Why doesn't she have sufficient drive? Because she's not doing xyz during/for the launch. I always tell people to work backward. If you see a problem, back up a step, then again if needed, and again. And not backing up will end up in some really wonky mechanics. And some girls will actually find a way to adjust and get the ball over the plate, but that true potential is never realized.

The worst is seeing videos from professional instructors talking about how they're working on the curve or drop, etc, and the kid's front side is collapsing and back side is sweeping so bad that they'd be throwing great strikes...in a bowling alley.

 

[ArmWhip]

The first thing is to know what kind of spin she throws naturally. For that purpose I like to put large black circles in each of the 'horseshoes' on the ball, this allows the spin to be seen better. I find that beginner spin can be anywhere from pure bullet to pure top spin, the most common spin is about half way between the two (top spin angled slightly right). I don't like using a taped circle, there are too many ways to throw good spin and not get the circle in a perfect line. From the video I would guess she is throwing more bullet than top. Ask her where she feels the ball coming off her fingers. If it's the thumb side of the index finger then it's bullet spin. Top spin will feel like it's coming off the tips of the fingers.

On the positive side it sounds like you've found a good way to throw a change up.

 

[mmeece]

I won't go into a long explanation, but the point is this: don't chase "proper" spin at the expense of mechanics and speed. If her mechanics look good and she's throwing strikes at a good speed then don't chase a certain spin by changing mechanics. Let her develop the spin at release during drill work.

 

[diamond14]

Mite be a small thing, but we used a fat sharpie to color a line around the ball (across 4 seams, drop spin). Tape altered the feel of the ball. Also use a second ball a make same line around ball but thru narrow seams. My DD used this a her FB and with finger placement, release pressure the ball would have drop spin but at angle to travel direction. This would cause ball to cut in or out. Experiment.

 

[Ken B]

Brian
First of all, her improvement from where you started is amazing! Really good work!

As mentioned above, you're probably seeing the axis of the ball in the middle, or just to the right of middle. After she throws a few fastballs, take a look at the inside of her forearm for the pink area where she's brushing. Then ask her to move her brush spot more towards the middle of her wrist. Throw a few and see where the axis is. Think "Fastball with a different brush spot." If the axis (seen as a dot) still isn't on the side of the ball, move the brush spot a little more at a time until the dots are on the sides and you're seeing 12/6 spin. If you're using tape, the stripe might be wobbly, but look for overall 12/6 spin. See the pic for examples of where the fastball brush might be and where she might need to "think" about brushing to get drop spin. It's possible that she may need to keep moving the perceived brush spot to get the spin. Think feel vs real here.

 

[4green]

Is the grip used by the girl and the instructor exactly the same?
Or does the girl tend to use all of her fingers and the instructor only uses 2 fingers?
This has a big impact on ball release.