Interference Question

[radness]

@Ed this snapshot below is part of the conversation from the other runner interference discussion.
Since you agree it should be immediate...
The umpires created this problem of late call.
*After the double play was completed.

Could argue/debate umpire was already wrong in the late call...but heck...try to be flexible in making a late 'correction'.
In that late 'correction' they decided to overlook or ignor the play that did get completed.
If you as an umpire want to ignor both
The late call
&
Taking away the play.
Thats your choice.
Cuz we already both know
Umpires have different perspectives in handling calls.

 

[EdLovrich]

No, I didn't miss it. But, that was not part of the OP. In the OP it i unclear if "time" was called or not. Also, there has been discussion around whether you can even have had interference if the defense is able to complete the play, not only in thisthread bu one or two others currently.

 

[radness]

No, I didn't miss it. But, that was not part of the OP. In the OP it i unclear if "time" was called or not. Also, there has been discussion around whether you can even have had interference if the defense is able to complete the play, not only in thisthread bu one or two others currently.

Sooo now your knowing the correct details of this post kinda causes a hick-up in the rulebook doesnt it!
Its not a hypothetical scenario.
This happened.
Contact but
Play was not called dead apon occurrence.
Defense got a double play.

Thats it.

What would you Ed do as an umpire?
Let it go... its too late to call interference.
Or go backwards to do what?

 

[marriard]

I am not sure what the issue here is.

• If the umpire called interference during the play, then the ball is dead immediately NO MATTER what happens past this. The act of interference kills the play AT THE TIME THE INTERFERENCE occurred. There is no delayed dead ball in this case - it is just dead. Doing a garbage job of killing the play doesn't negate the call. Turning a double play doesn't negate the interference call.
• If the umpire didn't call interference initially but then decided to call it after the play (possible after getting together with his fellow official) - which they can - the ball is STILL dead at the point of interference and the same penalty is enforced. No matter what happened, if you call interference then THAT is the point where the play is(was?) dead.
• If they never called it and decide not to call it, then there is a double play.

If you call interference - even if you do it late or after the play - you have to go back to when the interference happened. If you called it during the play, you can't take it back either - you called it - the play is dead.

Had something similar happen recently though not as complex.
Bases loaded, 2 outs; the ball hit to SS, SS fields the ball and goes to throw to 1B but HAS to double-clutch the throw because the runner heading to third steps right into their throwing motion and the throw doesn't get the batter-runner at 1B.
I am the Field Umpire. I call safe.. then immediately realize I have interference; call time; announce interference, runner now on 3B out, run doesn't score.


Adding link to Dead Ball tables (immediate v dead and surrounding rules) which adds to @EdLovrich 's response below.

https//www.nfhs.org/media/4295033/2-rule-5-dead-ball-and-suspension-of-play-final.pptx

 

[EdLovrich]

Just an addendum to marriard's post.

If as an umpire I get with my partner or I replay the action on the ol' mental VHS, I (we) need to DISREGARD any following action in determining if the player was hindered/impeded/prevented from completing a play. The fact that a DP was turned successfully hos NO BEARING on whether or not a runner's actions constituted interference or not. If it happened you apply the rule regardless of anything that followed.

There has been comparison with obstruction and the fact that obs is a delayed dead ball. But even obs either occurred or it didn't occur, properly you make the call at the time it happened (give the delayed dead ball signal, point, "That's obstruction") but you reserve your decision on what the penalty is until the play finishes. No matter what the outcome, you still had obstruction, you still call the delayed dead ball and you still award the base you are ultimately going to protect the runner to, unless she advance beyond it. (One of the hardest things to explain to a coach, "Time, that was obstruction, runner is still out")

TLDR: If interference occurred, it makes ZERO difference what happens afterwards, because it just didn't happen no matter WHEN the interference is actually called..

 

[radness]

• If they never called it and decide not to call it, then there is a double play.

If you call interference - even if you do it late or after the play - you have to go back to when the interference happened. If you called it during the play, you can't take it back either - you called it - the play is dead.

Had something similar happen recently though not as complex.
Bases loaded, 2 outs; the ball hit to SS, SS fields the ball and goes to throw to 1B but HAS to double-clutch the throw because the runner heading to third steps right into their throwing motion and the throw doesn't get the batter-runner at 1B.
I am the Field Umpire. I call safe.. then immediately realize I have interference; call time; announce interference, runner now on 3B out, run doesn't score.


Adding link to Dead Ball tables (immediate v dead and surrounding rules) which adds to @EdLovrich 's response below.

https//www.nfhs.org/media/4295033/2-rule-5-dead-ball-and-suspension-of-play-final.pptx

That in-itself say's a lot

Its interesting in a situation like the OP scenario...
if / when an umpire misses calling this immediatly.
And the play finishes.
And neither coach speaks up about the interference...
That an umpire would overturn themselves.

Seems a coach would speak up...
But then
Wouldnt make sense for defense to complain and forfit one of the two outs they got.

And peculiar if offense said
Hey we bumped into her
( as if pointing that out may seem intentional)

The point in this post is....

Making an immediate call on interference seems essential.

Goes back to the posibilty of players intentional inteference utilizing the rule to negate posible double plays.
Just sayin' strategy

 

[obritt]

Question? As i read this the only way i can see interference called on runner is if she went out of her way to contact SS, otherwise SS could be called for obstruction.

 

[marriard]

Its interesting in a situation like the OP scenario...
if / when an umpire misses calling this immediatly.
And the play finishes.
And neither coach speaks up about the interference...
That an umpire would overturn themselves.

You saw in my example that I changed my call immediately. No coach came out. Didn't go to my partner. Just realised what I missed in real time. And I will go to my partner without any prompting if I need to especially if I know they do have a better view of something I can't see but I had to make the call. And there is no 'overturning' in softball - a calling umpire may change his initial call based on better information.

Seems a coach would speak up...
But thenWouldnt make sense for defense to complain and forfit one of the two outs they got.

Yes - a coach could absolutely come out and ask if there should have been interference on their own player and therefore the ball was dead so the play should be an out on the interfering player, not a double play. And if I have to call it, I absolutely would.

And yes it could suck that a double play was taken away for a single out; sometimes the rules fall that way. You can't cover everything in a rule book and on the odd occasion, you get a bad and unintended result. Good news - they are massively rare situations and in addition, it is extremely rare that the coach knows the rules and even rarer they realize this may be the time to get a call. But it happens - in my experience you gernally run into something like this about 1 time per season.

Goes back to the posibilty of players intentional inteference utilizing the rule to negate posible double plays.
Just sayin' strategy

As long as they are OK with being ejected. So balance that out. Obvious intent and you are out of the game... Also never forget that though the ball is dead I can STILL call the double play if I deem they tried to break one up. Again, massively rare and the chances of a player having time to think through that situation and make the interference are so very unlikely.

 

[marriard]

Question? As i read this the only way i can see interference called on runner is if she went out of her way to contact SS, otherwise SS could be called for obstruction.

???

Not sure what you are saying here?

In ht OP. there is no obstruction possibility. SS is making an initial fielding play on the ball and then has the ball. Both of those things ensure there can be no obstruction, only interference by the runner.

And intent is not required for interference - there is just a larger penalty possibility if it was intentional.

 

[radness]

You saw in my example that I changed my call immediately. No coach came out. Didn't go to my partner. Just realised what I missed in real time. And I will go to my partner without any prompting if I need to especially if I know they do have a better view of something I can't see but I had to make the call. And there is no 'overturning' in softball - a calling umpire may change his initial call based on better information.



Yes - a coach could absolutely come out and ask if there should have been interference on their own player and therefore the ball was dead so the play should be an out on the interfering player, not a double play. And if I have to call it, I absolutely would.

And yes it could suck that a double play was taken away for a single out; sometimes the rules fall that way. You can't cover everything in a rule book and on the odd occasion, you get a bad and unintended result. Good news - they are massively rare situations and in addition, it is extremely rare that the coach knows the rules and even rarer they realize this may be the time to get a call. But it happens - in my experience you gernally run into something like this about 1 time per season.



As long as they are OK with being ejected. So balance that out. Obvious intent and you are out of the game... Also never forget that though the ball is dead I can STILL call the double play if I deem they tried to break one up. Again, massively rare and the chances of a player having time to think through that situation and make the interference are so very unlikely.

Good read.
As we know many peculiar things can happen.
That said
Umpires cannot always interpret intentional or not.

There are Players who do know what they are doing on the field. Intentional or not.
Umpires could no humanily way decifer all of that correctly all the time.

Did like the post who commented maybe throw out a flag...that would be interesting.