Dropped 3rd Strike or not?

[JerseyBall]

During our game (14u) last weekend, our 12u team coach came over to watch the end of our game because they just finished theirs on the next field over. He was telling me about a call and then asked our umpire her opinion and the opposing coach, who said she has also umpired, got in the conversation.

Here's the situation. Two strike count and the pitcher skips the ball before home plate and it bounces into the catchers glove. The batter swung and took off for first. The umpire called her out on a straight strike out and said it wasn't a passed ball. Our umpire thought it was a passed ball, the opposing coach thought it wasn't. ASA rule set. What's your call?



On a side note, I had my first call overturned (this being my first season as HC). My dd was up to bat, runners on first and second, 1 out. She hits an infield fly towards first and the umpire called infield fly rule and my dd out immediately. The ball landed just beyond first and rolled to foul territory. I asked the umpire for a moment and told her I didn't agree with the infield fly rule because the first baseman was back peddling to try to make the catch and had to contend with the bag as well. I told her that's not an ordinary effort. She agreed and decided to give my dd strike 1 and keep the runners on 1st and 2nd. I was happy to have the out reversed and wasn't going to question the fact that the ball landed fair.

 

[BretMan]

It helps if you think of this in the proper rule book terms, which would be an uncaught third strike. People generically call this a dropped third strike (and I think that it's even called that in some sections of the rule book, though not in the actual rule that covers this play). Calling it a dropped third strike leads people to think that the ball has to be dropped in some way by the catcher. That isn't the case.

The rules say that the batter is out when a third strike is caught. For the purpose of this rule, the catch of the third strike would have to meet the same definition of a catch that you would have anywhere else on the field, such as on a batted ball. First and foremost, the ball must be airborne or in-flight from the pitcher's hand to the point where it is caught by the catcher. If a batted ball touches the ground at any point can it be caught for an out? Of course not. It's the same here. If the ball touched the ground at any point before being secured by the catcher, then it is not a catch! If it's not a catch, then you can't possibly have a caught third strike.

On the play in question the third strike was not caught (not by the definition of a catch). If the other conditions of the rule are met ( first base unoccupied or anytime there are two outs) then the batter is not out. She may advance to first base and the defense must play upon her to put her out.

 

[MTR]

During our game (14u) last weekend, our 12u team coach came over to watch the end of our game because they just finished theirs on the next field over. He was telling me about a call and then asked our umpire her opinion and the opposing coach, who said she has also umpired, got in the conversation.

Here's the situation. Two strike count and the pitcher skips the ball before home plate and it bounces into the catchers glove. The batter swung and took off for first. The umpire called her out on a straight strike out and said it wasn't a passed ball. Our umpire thought it was a passed ball, the opposing coach thought it wasn't. ASA rule set. What's your call?

Bretman pretty much covered the U3K, but just another short note, "passed ball" is a statistical term and really has nothing to do with the rules.

On a side note, I had my first call overturned (this being my first season as HC). My dd was up to bat, runners on first and second, 1 out. She hits an infield fly towards first and the umpire called infield fly rule and my dd out immediately. The ball landed just beyond first and rolled to foul territory. I asked the umpire for a moment and told her I didn't agree with the infield fly rule because the first baseman was back peddling to try to make the catch and had to contend with the bag as well. I told her that's not an ordinary effort. She agreed and decided to give my dd strike 1 and keep the runners on 1st and 2nd. I was happy to have the out reversed and wasn't going to question the fact that the ball landed fair.

I think you conned a weak umpire and the call should not have been turned over. The IF is called by the umpire when the ball, in the umpire's judgment, can be caught with ordinary effort. There is no requirement that the infielder, pitcher or catcher actually catch the ball or be in position to catch the ball. For that matter, an IF can be caught by an outfielder and it is still an IF if called.

And to make things worse, the umpire took a fair batted ball and changed it to a "strike"? Are you kidding me?

 

[Lozza]

I think you conned a weak umpire

Pretty much. Should have been out and I'd have been lodging a protest. That's an appaling call from an umpire.

 

[chinamigarden]

Surprised the Ump changed the IFR call. Firstbasemen backpedal and deal with the bag on a regular basis, how can it be seen as not ordinary effort. On the other hand if she got on her knees and crawled to where the ball was it should make no difference. The rule says if the fielder can field the ball with ordinary effort, not that ordinary effort was used, or that the ball was even close to being caught.

 

[Lozza]

Surprised the Ump changed the IFR call. Firstbasemen backpedal and deal with the bag on a regular basis, how can it be seen as not ordinary effort. On the other hand if she got on her knees and crawled to where the ball was it should make no difference. The rule says if the fielder can field the ball with ordinary effort, not that ordinary effort was used, or that the ball was even close to being caught.

Even if it wasn't ordinary effort, the umpire had called IF and cannot reverse it.

 

[coach james]

My opinion is a strike out... the catcher didnt drop it...
But, Im not a patched umpire either

 

[MTR]

My opinion is a strike out... the catcher didnt drop it...
But, Im not a patched umpire either

Whatever a "patched" umpire is

If you read post #2, you will see the correct answer.

 

[kenb63]

As to the side note, I thought when a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

 

[Comp]

As to the side note, I thought when a declared infield fly becomes foul, it is treated as a foul ball, not an infield fly.

That would be correct, the verbal call is really suppose to be infield fly if fair. If the ball isnt touched while in fair territory and goes foul, it is nothing but a foul ball.