Cues to the pitch you call

[Phathead]

I was following the other pitch calling thread but it went away from what I was hoping to find. Before I begin I am in favor of the catcher calling pitches if capable.
So for the purpose of this thread lets assume a few things that can change what you look for.
1.The catcher is good at everything but calling pitches, and the defense is solid.
2. I know the pitcher and her pitches thru bucket time and she has played for me for several yrs.
3. This a TB tourney 18u championship 7 inning game against a team you know zero about (They played the whole tourney different complex across town)

Now these are some things that I look for/ask myself/assume etc. as I see each batter the first time

1.Does she appear to have speed-bunt,slap
2.Do I see a hole in her swing as she takes her practice swings that I can exploit-hand drop, barrell drop, casting
3Where does she set up in box

Now there are runners on base and I have seen all batters I call pitches based on

1.See above
2.What did she do last time
3.What is the score and what inning how many out
4.Runner on first is she slow is batter slow-can I get a double play ball
5.Runner(s) in scoring position do I just need out GO/FO is good or stop scoring ground ball to infield-See #3.


These are some of things I look for. Alot of this happens quickly and subconsiously some is deliberate thought. I don't pretend to have all the answers but would like to know what some of you look for that dictates what pitch you call. I have my theroy on what pitch to throw in each senero and not wanting to debate that part, just wanting to see what you look for and see if I am missing some cues that I need to look for.

 

[Greenmonsters]

I think your approach provides a catcher with a good starting point to build on. Here's the general approach I try to teach a catcher to call the game. The first time through the order, and particularly in the first inning or two, I will try to work off my pitcher's known strengths (trying to exploit any obvious swing holes) as I assess how well she is throwing her different pitches and determine the limit's of the umpire's strike zone. I will also look for an opportune time to throw back to back change ups (they don't have to be strikes!) to let the offense know that they can't automatically sit dead red on the pitch following a change. During this time, a consistent offensive approach may (or may not!) become apparent, taking a strike, swinging at the first pitch, laying off change ups w/ less than 2 strikes, etc. Second time through the order, we should know what the pitcher has and what to expect from the umpire so we'll work to expand the strike zone so that we're pitching to the perimeter of the larger of the umpire's strike zone or the batter's go zone and only throw the ball over the plate if we have to. Also at that stage we should have a pretty good idea of which hitters are overmatched by our pitcher as well as the one's that we really have to be careful with. Second and subsequent times through the order, the batter's visible weaknesses and prior result get considered and weighed against what's working best for the pitcher. Even if a pitch isn't working well, I don't want to abandon it because that makes it easier for the hitters (fewer pitches to worry about), but instead will try to use it as a set up or waste pitch. We'll look to see if the hitters are making in box adjustments and generally the weak hitters we'll try to dispatch efficiently and the stronger hitters we'll try to set up to get them out with my pitchers best (or second best) pitch. It's an indication that we need to change our approach (or the pitcher) if the hitter's start getting dialed in and hitting the ball hard. With runner's on base I'll try to pitch to the desired outcome and my defense's strength's, but, recognizing that the hitter should expect that, try and steal a strikeout or easy out by crossing them up (e.g., going upstairs above the top of the zone w/ 2 strikes in a groundball DP situation). Whenever a hitter gets a solid piece of the ball, I'll evaluate whether they hit a mistake or just are a good hitter who hit a good pitch.

From the bench, you have a better and easier read on the game situation and batter history, but your location and perspective prevent you from getting the same kind of read you need for the pitcher, umpire, and subtle batter adjustments. As always, YMMV!

 

[Phathead]

You mentioned offense strategy and that's what I was looking for. When you said it I started thinking of how many times i have picked up on something (excluding bunt situations) and I cant think of many. A couple of times I have run into take till called strike but that has never lasted long.

 

[Fastpitch86]

I was following the other pitch calling thread but it went away from what I was hoping to find. Before I begin I am in favor of the catcher calling pitches if capable.
So for the purpose of this thread lets assume a few things that can change what you look for.
1.The catcher is good at everything but calling pitches, and the defense is solid.
2. I know the pitcher and her pitches thru bucket time and she has played for me for several yrs.
3. This a TB tourney 18u championship 7 inning game against a team you know zero about (They played the whole tourney different complex across town)

Now these are some things that I look for/ask myself/assume etc. as I see each batter the first time

1.Does she appear to have speed-bunt,slap
2.Do I see a hole in her swing as she takes her practice swings that I can exploit-hand drop, barrell drop, casting
3Where does she set up in box

Now there are runners on base and I have seen all batters I call pitches based on

1.See above
2.What did she do last time
3.What is the score and what inning how many out
4.Runner on first is she slow is batter slow-can I get a double play ball
5.Runner(s) in scoring position do I just need out GO/FO is good or stop scoring ground ball to infield-See #3.


These are some of things I look for. Alot of this happens quickly and subconsiously some is deliberate thought. I don't pretend to have all the answers but would like to know what some of you look for that dictates what pitch you call. I have my theroy on what pitch to throw in each senero and not wanting to debate that part, just wanting to see what you look for and see if I am missing some cues that I need to look for.

Everything you mentioned above is pretty much what my DD's coach who calls pitches processes information during the game. I asked my DD to look it over and she also thought you covered everything. Also, as you said, not much time between pitches to strategize just have to go with what feels right.

 

[Scorekeeper]

I was following the other pitch calling thread but it went away from what I was hoping to find. Before I begin I am in favor of the catcher calling pitches if capable.

You’re starting with the presumption that a) what pitch is called makes a great deal of difference, and b) the pitcher is capable of correctly executing what was called to a high degree.

So for the purpose of this thread lets assume a few things that can change what you look for.
1.The catcher is good at everything but calling pitches, and the defense is solid.
2. I know the pitcher and her pitches thru bucket time and she has played for me for several yrs.
3. This a TB tourney 18u championship 7 inning game against a team you know zero about (They played the whole tourney different complex across town)

I’m not saying it’s impossible for a catcher at that level to not be fully capable of calling pitches, but I have to wonder why.

Now these are some things that I look for/ask myself/assume etc. as I see each batter the first time

1.Does she appear to have speed-bunt,slap
2.Do I see a hole in her swing as she takes her practice swings that I can exploit-hand drop, barrell drop, casting
3Where does she set up in box

Now there are runners on base and I have seen all batters I call pitches based on

1.See above
2.What did she do last time
3.What is the score and what inning how many out
4.Runner on first is she slow is batter slow-can I get a double play ball
5.Runner(s) in scoring position do I just need out GO/FO is good or stop scoring ground ball to infield-See #3.

Do you really go through all of the above for every hitter, every inning of every game?

These are some of things I look for. Alot of this happens quickly and subconsiously some is deliberate thought. I don't pretend to have all the answers but would like to know what some of you look for that dictates what pitch you call. I have my theroy on what pitch to throw in each senero and not wanting to debate that part, just wanting to see what you look for and see if I am missing some cues that I need to look for.

The way you’re describing things, I get the distinct impression you often call the same pitches back to back a great deal of the time.

 

[Greenmonsters]

The issue I have with the described approach is that it doesn't take advantage of 1) the one thing you have control over i.e., the pitcher and their abilities and strengths and 2) the umpire's strike zone. IMO, these 2 factors should account for more than 50% of the equation AND do NOT change on a pitch to pitch basis.

 

[Phathead]

You’re starting with the presumption that a) what pitch is called makes a great deal of difference, and b) the pitcher is capable of correctly executing what was called to a high degree. .

A. I definetly think that the pitch called can make a differance if a batter has a flaw in their swing, or if a ground ball is needed I do belive that a drop ball will get the grounder more often than some other pitches. If it didn't make a differance then why do pitchers spend so much time developing pitches other than the FB and why is there multiple theards on the subject of pitch calling.
B. As I said I have spent the time catching the pitcher and know her pitchs well and what to expect from each pitch. Granted if the pitcher doesn't perform then it can all be for naught.

I’m not saying it’s impossible for a catcher at that level to not be fully capable of calling pitches, but I have to wonder why.

Not all catchers have been taught. I agree that at that age most should be able to call pitches to some degree. I just put that in there to save the "catchers should be calling the game" debate and I agree they should if they are capable.

Do you really go through all of the above for every hitter, every inning of every game? .

I try to always have a plan of attack for each batter depending on some of the things listed above. My biggest fear for my DD is a coach calling pitches that gives no thought to the things I listed.

The way you’re describing things, I get the distinct impression you often call the same pitches back to back a great deal of the time.

As most of us have been told at least once in our live is that sometimes first impressions can be wrong.

 

[Phathead]

Greenmonsters,
As I said I know the pitcher well and that includes her strengths and weakness.
I agree that the umpires strike zone should be listed and has a lot to do with the location called and what pitch best takes advantage of the part of the zone the ump is giving.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Greenmonsters,
As I said I know the pitcher well and that includes her strengths and weakness.
I agree that the umpires strike zone should be listed.

Sounds like you've got a good handle on it, but if you catch her all the time then you also know that every pitch is not the same every day or even during the same pitching session or inning to inning. And that's something you can't be seen from the bench. Which is another reason to keep training your catchers!

 

[Phathead]

Green,

Agreed on the whole statment, the reason for the thread is just that I want to turn over the duties to the catcher and just wanted to make sure I'm covering the things that she should know and look for. One statment I always use to the catcher is to have a plan. If that plan don't work on that batter learn and adjust just like I have and will.