Another Rules question

[canyonjoe]

Playing today R1 and R3 we are in the field. Batter is a fast slapper and puts down a great bunt. Our 3B comes up throwing but quite a bit late on throw to first. Batter crossed first and stayed on foul side of the line. Ball hits off our 1B mitt and then hits the batter (who is now a runner). R3 scores and R1 goes to 3rd and batter winds up on second. 1st base ump calls it a dead ball because it struck her in foul territory allowed run to score and made the batter go back to first and R1 go back to second.

Maybe I'm just nuts, but I can't see any reason why it didn't remain a live ball. Since it helped us I certainly didn't argue, but now think I might be losing it (which is true)

 

[PA SB Dad]

Maybe blue was confusing it with the rules from kickball. Never heard this one otherwise.

 

[Sparky Guy]

A thrown ball that hits a runner or batter/runner is a live ball. Fair or foul makes no difference. Unless the runner's actions in the umpire's judgement were intentional. A deflected ball on a missed catch after the batter/runner has run through 1st base could hardly be judged at intentional. If it was a deal ball on a thrown ball teams would be trying to bean the runner with the ball all game long.

How many times have you seen girls caught in a run down and one of the defenders mistakenly hits the girl in the helmet with a throw. The ball bounces off of the helmet and ends up in the outfield with the runner taking an extra base? What a great way to end a rundown. Hit the runner with the ball and she now has to return to the base she came from. Works for me if we're on defense.

Sounds like this umpire was making up rules as he went along. Did the other coach protest? Did the other coach even ask why the umpire made the call he did? I can see why you kept wuiet about it. Worked in your favor. I've had some made up rules go in my favor over the years. I stay on my side of the field and watch the other coach argue without success.

 

[canyonjoe]

A thrown ball that hits a runner or batter/runner is a live ball. Fair or foul makes no difference. Unless the runner's actions in the umpire's judgement were intentional. A deflected ball on a missed catch after the batter/runner has run through 1st base could hardly be judged at intentional. If it was a deal ball on a thrown ball teams would be trying to bean the runner with the ball all game long.

How many times have you seen girls caught in a run down and one of the defenders mistakenly hits the girl in the helmet with a throw. The ball bounces off of the helmet and ends up in the outfield with the runner taking an extra base? What a great way to end a rundown. Hit the runner with the ball and she now has to return to the base she came from. Works for me if we're on defense.

Sounds like this umpire was making up rules as he went along. Did the other coach protest? Did the other coach even ask why the umpire made the call he did? I can see why you kept wuiet about it. Worked in your favor. I've had some made up rules go in my favor over the years. I stay on my side of the field and watch the other coach argue without success.

No argument from the other coach. I was amazed how many people thought it made sense.

 

[Comp]

Doesn't make sense that an umpire wouldn't know this is nothing but a live ball.

 

[Sparky Guy]

Doesn't make sense that an umpire wouldn't know this is nothing but a live ball.

With some of the umps I've seen over the years it does. I will say this. The vast majority of the umpires I've had over the years are good at what they do. Those are the umps you hardly remember. Unfortunately, it's the bad ones that everyone remembers.

 

[canyonjoe]

Doesn't make sense that an umpire wouldn't know this is nothing but a live ball.

Comp, the whole tournament was off with the umpires.

They thought the catchers box was the same as baseball, they had the wrong game times early in the day, one guy wouldn't ask for help on a play. The other ump actually said between innings he would have changed the call. There was an issue with allowing metal cleats the day before,etc.

It certainly didn't cost us or the other team the game, but some basic rules were missed. We usually have great umps in our games so it was a little off.

 

[Comp]

Sounds like there may have been some issues with officiating, but, in defense of some of the comments just made there is no requirement for an umpire to go for help. If the official saw all the elements of the play and does not feel they missed any elements of it there is no need to ask the other official anything. If a coach comes out and simply asks me to go ask my partner because they don't like my call, I am not going to talk to my partner. Now, if the coach has a specific question about some aspect of the play I may have missed, a pulled foot, a bobbled ball etc and I do have some question as to that part of the play, yes I will go ask my partner. But asking for the umpire to go for help simply because the coach doesn't agree with the call should not be reason for an umpire consult.

Also, the umpire who told you they would have changed the call was completely and totally out of line. Not only should he not have been discussing his partners call, he has absolutely no authority to overturn another umpires call. Even if the umpires do get together and discuss a call, the ultimate outcome of the call still belongs to the calling umpire.

 

[canyonjoe]

In the case of the call he was totally trailing the play and had no angle on the play at 3rd. I'm not even sure he made the wrong call, but I am sure he didn't see it clearly. Even so I understand his right to not ask for help, but I really think he should have. I agree with your comment that the other ump was out of line and it's just an example of what we had all weekend. Fortunately none really affected the outcome of the games and even though we are used to better Umpires, they all were friendly and controlled the games fine. They just were a step below some of the good ones we often get.

On a side note, I seriously respect your opinion and the depth of your knowledge on the rules of the game.

 

[Sparky Guy]

In the case of the call he was totally trailing the play and had no angle on the play at 3rd. I'm not even sure he made the wrong call, but I am sure he didn't see it clearly. Even so I understand his right to not ask for help, but I really think he should have. I agree with your comment that the other ump was out of line and it's just an example of what we had all weekend. Fortunately none really affected the outcome of the games and even though we are used to better Umpires, they all were friendly and controlled the games fine. They just were a step below some of the good ones we often get.

On a side note, I seriously respect your opinion and the depth of your knowledge on the rules of the game.

One more thought on the call. Did the ball go into dead ball territory after it hit the runner? That would have an effect on the call, or did the ump specifically "Hit the runner." was a reason he made the call he did?