Throwing

MrT ... good for you for running under-the-hood experiments. My hats off to you.

So from your perspective, if I understand it correctly, the sequence is something like this ....

0: Starting from a position closed to your target ... with the lead shoulder closest to your target and the throwing shoulder further from the target.

1: Performing a hand break, the upper portion of the throwing arm internally rotates as the hips gain ground. I personally consider the hips gaining ground to be an absolute during the hand break.

2: The lead thigh rolls over ... i.e., the lead upper leg externally rotates ... and this triggers you to TE ( i.e., to arch your back). The combination of TE, and rolling your thigh over, virtually automates the occurrence of external rotation of the upper throwing arm. Your throwing arm moves to an angle less than 90-degrees (not an "L") as the stretch from the lower back to the throwing shoulder increases.

3: The ball/hand/throwing arm is whipped forward as the arm extends. Thoracic extension turns to thoracic flexion and you follow through in a manner that basically has your torso horizontal with the ground. Your throwing shoulder, which was further away from your target during the hand break, is now closest to your target.

Is that the sequence you are envisioning? Something like that?

Yeah that sounds good. You make a good point about slow motion pretend throws though. I need to do some real throws with a video camera.

I recommend doing what this player does. She is as close to being in perfect sync as you're going to get in a game situation.

Wellphyt said:

I recommend doing what this player does. She is as close to being in perfect sync as you're going to get in a game situation.

Click to expand...

Well, I believe my post 80 is important relating to this clip you have posted. In my post I explain that to me in your collage the Tewks girl is starting to roll the thigh. Her arm is externally rotated quite a ways. Maybe too far. I understand your synch concerns with regards to preventing injuries.

But again, I feel the Tewks girl has started to roll the thigh. Now look at this frame:



And now back to the frame of the Tewks girl that you found offensive:



My point is I think the arm externally rotates in both of these throws before the thigh fully rolls over, if we define that as the front toe being pointed at the target. Perhaps a nitpick, and I honestly don't remember exactly what Hodge says. You gave some quotes along the lines of "don't externally rotate the arm until you feel the thigh roll over". We might still all be good but I'm trying to understand if "feeling the thigh roll over" would mean you start to externally rotate as you start to roll over.

Interesting gif Five. Externally rotates later than the two girls. A lot of TE.

I videotaped myself. Yes right as I come down on my front toe I think that's where TE really occurs. Yes too my arm did have more of an angle when I tried to really maximize TE. That was pretty comical on the video. I think I need to practice that. I was a SS, so I never threw like that. I could feel the power source. Maybe for a pitcher or outfielder you might really achieve a lot of TE.

MrT ... I could understand TE being peaked at about the point the front toe touches down, but IMO there should have been an under-the-hood feel of TE initiating earlier.

As for performing a SS throw ... assuming we are speaking of the same type of throw ... try performing a SS throw with the thorax bent forward, or thoracic flexion ... pretty weak throw ... then relax and allow your thoracic mobility to work ... see if you can now feel the thoracic extension that takes place. It might feel like less than for an overhand throw, but the elastic process should still be intact.

Five, thanks, I'll take a look and try to feel it again. It's sort of a hard area to think about when you are throwing and also hard to see on video just how much extension is occurring. Definitely maxed at toe touch, I could see that much in the video.

I was throwing overhand. Just from SS, or say 2B or catcher in baseball, or any infield position in softball (not much time!), you don't need to throw 90mph. Quickness and accuracy are the highest priorities.

But when I tried to max out TE, I could feel that might really be a power source. It would take some practice, at least for me, my balance was off a bit. But I could see for a pitcher who is trying to throw 90mph why they might achieve more TE and more angle on the arm as you point out.

Also, for an outfielder, more like a pro, who is going for a do or die throw where they can gun it from right field to home on a line and one short hop, they too probably need to throw 90mph and might utilize more TE but I am just postulating.

Oh, and also, do you agree with my claim that the Tewks girl is not that far ahead of the girl in the outfield clip? Do you have a particular opinion about the arm externally rotating at a particular moment during the sequence, or do you think there is some play?

Mr T said:

Well, I believe my post 80 is important relating to this clip you have posted. In my post I explain that to me in your collage the Tewks girl is starting to roll the thigh. Her arm is externally rotated quite a ways. Maybe too far. I understand your synch concerns with regards to preventing injuries.

But again, I feel the Tewks girl has started to roll the thigh. Now look at this frame:

And now back to the frame of the Tewks girl that you found offensive:

My point is I think the arm externally rotates in both of these throws before the thigh fully rolls over, if we define that as the front toe being pointed at the target. Perhaps a nitpick, and I honestly don't remember exactly what Hodge says. You gave some quotes along the lines of "don't externally rotate the arm until you feel the thigh roll over". We might still all be good but I'm trying to understand if "feeling the thigh roll over" would mean you start to externally rotate as you start to roll over.

Click to expand...

The Tewks' girl has NOT rolled over her front thigh in that image. She's about as far out of sync as you can get. She's not even close to doing what the player from Japan is doing. Also, the MLB player that FFS posted is in sync. He just brings the ball way down to knee level and externally rotates from there. The player from Japan keeps her throwing arm closer to level when she brings the ball back. They are doing the same thing from different starting points.

Yes you start to externally rotate the arm as the front thigh begins to roll over. Honestly, if you aren't seeing the difference between what Tewks' girl is doing and what the player from Japan is doing, there isn't anything more I can say to get you to see it. The bottom line is that the girl from Japan has her arm internally rotated when her front thigh begins to roll over and Tewks' girl doesn't.

For the purpose of this discussion, if you are placing importance on the position of the throwing arm at the point where the front thigh completes the roll over, then you are totally missing the point of the medical reason why Hodge believes it's important to keep the throwing arm internally rotated until the front thigh begins to roll over. When Tewks' girl's thigh begins to roll over, the muscles in her shoulder are already being stretched. When the front thigh of the player from Japan begins to roll over, the muscles in her shoulder aren't stretched. Both players will eventually wind up with their arm up behind their head and their front foot pointing at their target, but one gets there safely and the other is at risk of injuring her shoulder.

I'm going to drop out of here for a while and let you and FFS carry on with the discussion. As a travel ball coach I'm going to continue to teach the girls how to make quick, well synced upped throws. I just don't see the relevance of TE in the game of fastpitch.