One of the hardest parts of coaching pitchers

[Hillhouse]

I learned that early as a 10u coach. Take whatever speed the pitcher parent says their DD throws and subtract 5 MPH. Minimum.

Or.... use an ESPN gun and add 5-8 mph.

 

[bsbs]

My daughter tried out / practiced with a team a month or so ago. The coach ask me what pitches does she throw. I said she understands the concept of most all the pitches. Just have her throw whatever in the bullpen to you and you can see what she throws. We didn't talk speed., people can clearly see if she throws hard or not.

 

[Hillhouse]

I love the approach of my DDs coach. She'll figure out what pitch she thinks you can naturally throw best and work it until it works. If you can master it you get more pitches. If not you practice until you do or try another pitch you can master. Some students have 1, some have 5, but you don't move on until you have it. The goal is good pitches not many pitches. Each practice you don't move to change until you have FB (drop). You don't get curve until you have change and you don't get rise until you have curve. Frustrating at times but dead on. Not only do you have to have it but you have to be able to locate it and mix it.

That's interesting. Personally I don't go with that approach. Here's why: for sure, a brand new pitcher at 12u can come in and throw hard due to strength. Ok, fine. But, her spin is crooked and the ball has a "natural curve" to it. (First of call, it's not "natural" she's twisting the ball to make it curve!!). But if I let her continue to twist her wrist with the delivery, she'll never develop a drop. And I can tell you all from a TON of experience, if you learn the curve first, the rise is 10x harder. If you learn the rise first, the curve is 10x easier.

Taz, I am not being critical of your coach. I'm just saying why I would do it differently. If the ball isn't spinning 12/6, it means the pitcher is doing something that is not "natural". Just my opinion though.

 

[Hillhouse]

It always amazes me when a girl, or more likely, the dad, says they have six pitches. In fact, one of my daughter's teammates told her she has "every pitch." Most MLB starters have 3-4 pitches, while relievers have 2-3, unless you're Mariano, in which case you throw the cutter 85% of the time, and they still couldn't hit it. These are grown men who've been working at this for 25 years and get paid millions of dollars a year, yet they only have three pitches. Where did they go wrong? LOL

the even crazier part about Mariano Rivera's cut pitch wasn't that the highly skilled guys couldn't hit it. I mean, that is baffling too. But, also that no other pitcher has been able to replicate it. Mariano has shown on TV many times the grip and release, yet none of these guys today can do it themselves.

 

[Tazman]

That's interesting. Personally I don't go with that approach. Here's why: for sure, a brand new pitcher at 12u can come in and throw hard due to strength. Ok, fine. But, her spin is crooked and the ball has a "natural curve" to it. (First of call, it's not "natural" she's twisting the ball to make it curve!!). But if I let her continue to twist her wrist with the delivery, she'll never develop a drop. And I can tell you all from a TON of experience, if you learn the curve first, the rise is 10x harder. If you learn the rise first, the curve is 10x easier.

Taz, I am not being critical of your coach. I'm just saying why I would do it differently. If the ball isn't spinning 12/6, it means the pitcher is doing something that is not "natural". Just my opinion though.

Your approach isn't that different. The coach will spend months getting rid of the twist to make sure that pitch is thrown properly before moving on. She does teach curve before rise. Wasn't a problem for my kids but you see a lot more. How do you handle kids that are ready for another pitch but don't yet have the velocity for a rise. I know you are not a fan of the "screw"

 

[Hillhouse]

Your approach isn't that different. The coach will spend months getting rid of the twist to make sure that pitch is thrown properly before moving on. She does teach curve before rise. Wasn't a problem for my kids but you see a lot more. How do you handle kids that are ready for another pitch but don't yet have the velocity for a rise. I know you are not a fan of the "screw"

it's not so much that I'm not a fan of the screw but if we're being intellectually honest about ball movement, then there is no such thing.

Because I think correct spin on the rise is one of the hardest things to do in pitching, I get them started on the spin early, before they have the velocity for it. The goal should be 6/12 backspin but that almost NEVER happens. However, that's the goal. So, the sooner they begin that process the better... after they move on to the 12" ball. I've only got 1 kid throwing the 11" that throws a rise full pitch.

The thing about the rise is, the margin for error is ZERO. On a drop, a pitcher can have bad mechanics and still make the ball spin 12/6 for it. Pitchers can have crappy mechanics but make it slow for a change up, even if they just slow their body and arm down. But on the rise, to get anywhere close to a backspin, there cannot be any mistakes. One bad move and the spin won't happen. It's not my rule, I didn't invent the pitch. But it ultimately comes down to how the human body is designed to move and how to get the results from it.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

it's not so much that I'm not a fan of the screw but if we're being intellectually honest about ball movement, then there is no such thing.

Because I think correct spin on the rise is one of the hardest things to do in pitching, I get them started on the spin early, before they have the velocity for it. The goal should be 6/12 backspin but that almost NEVER happens. However, that's the goal. So, the sooner they begin that process the better... after they move on to the 12" ball. I've only got 1 kid throwing the 11" that throws a rise full pitch.

The thing about the rise is, the margin for error is ZERO. On a drop, a pitcher can have bad mechanics and still make the ball spin 12/6 for it. Pitchers can have crappy mechanics but make it slow for a change up, even if they just slow their body and arm down. But on the rise, to get anywhere close to a backspin, there cannot be any mistakes. One bad move and the spin won't happen. It's not my rule, I didn't invent the pitch. But it ultimately comes down to how the human body is designed to move and how to get the results from it.

My daughter has been working on the shoulder placement you recommended, and that's made a huge difference in getting her rise back on track.

 

[kibadbo]

The thing about the rise is, the margin for error is ZERO. On a drop, a pitcher can have bad mechanics and still make the ball spin 12/6 for it. Pitchers can have crappy mechanics but make it slow for a change up, even if they just slow their body and arm down. But on the rise, to get anywhere close to a backspin, there cannot be any mistakes. One bad move and the spin won't happen. It's not my rule, I didn't invent the pitch. But it ultimately comes down to how the human body is designed to move and how to get the results from it.

Okay, then what about the whole bullet spin rise thing that comes up every college world series? I'm asking out of ignorance. Nearly everything I know about pitching came from your videos. Is it really just a high fastball?

 

[Hillhouse]

Okay, then what about the whole bullet spin rise thing that comes up every college world series? I'm asking out of ignorance. Nearly everything I know about pitching came from your videos. Is it really just a high fastball?

Well, since you asked..... lol. I think there's a few things to say. First, it would depend on who we're talking about. Some pitchers prioritize velocity above all else. As a result of the desire to throw 70 mph, to keep up with the Jones', they are willing to sacrifice ball spin for that velocity. But, when throwing 70 from 43' away, and now even closer with the newer rules, those pitchers will get strikeouts not because of the movement but because of the velocity of the pitch, regardless of where it goes.

Second, I think change in this is coming. I think the hitters are going to overcome the new pitching rules faster than ever with the influx of coaches who teach "picking the pitcher". Imagine how much easier it is to hit a pitch if you know what's coming in advance. It's like night/day. I can tell you at the tournaments I was lucky enough to pitch in, bullet spin pitches get crushed. It's a very easy spin for the hitter to see out of the pitcher's hand. In the lower levels of play, just like in the ladies game, it may not matter as much to have correct spin. But, again, we cannot confuse good pitching with bad hitting. They are not the same thing.

Finally, whlie I don't want to turn this into a whole riseball debate about the pitch's movements, I will say that in almost all the examples I've seen where someone is trying to disprove whether the riseball rises are using pitchers that probably don't have correct spin. I know that's blasphemy here where so many hold pitchers they've watched on TV in such high regard. And, no, I'm not going to join the fight about this pitch and whether it moves up or not. But I will say that there are 2 camps that claim to have science on their side. One side says it can't happen, a human isn't capable of spinning a ball fast enough to break gravity under any circumstance. The other side says it can happen, under the right circumstances: wind direction, ball weight, seam height, and of course spin direction.

 

[softballphreak]

I began thinking of this when posting on the Dropball drills thread. I think one of the most challenging parts of coaching pitchers isn't what we think of first when choosing what the ACTUAL hardest part of teaching pitching is. It's more subtle in some ways. In 2 words: Peer pressure.

In 23 years of doing lessons, every crop of new students all have one common denominator: the kid's friend who's also a pitcher and sees another pitching coach has her throwing 8 pitches, while my student does not. Since kids are brutal to each other, the pitcher without 8 pitches is ridiculed and feels inferior because she doesn't know there really is no such thing as 8 pitches. But kids believe one another. If Sally tells Jane that she is being taught her 7th pitch at the 12u level, Jane is going to believe it. Jane goes home and tells mom/dad that Sally's coach is teaching her 7 pitches already. Sally's dad in many cases is also the team's coach so, pitching time isn't equally divided. But Jane and parents are led to believe that Sally is superior because of the 7 pitches and that she gets the most time in the circle. It's an absolutely vicious cycle. And a couple things really exacerbate this problem:

1. at the young levels, a pitcher who can simply throw strikes is going to get 16 K's per game simply because so many young girls are afraid to swing the bat. So, strikes turn into strike outs fast.

2. Every pitch they watch on ESPN, with those wonderful announcers, tell her that every pitch thrown is on purpose. I pitcher on TV can literally slip when throwing, the ball sails over the catcher's head, and the audience is told about a great riseball there that "just got away" from the pitcher. Or anything inside is a screwball. Everything outside is a curve. Then we start getting into the "new pitches" or the inventions of a "Scrise". Or a "crop", when it was just a dropball thrown outside.

Personally, I don't have any solutions for this problem. I tell my students up front that they won't be learning 8 pitches as I think I had a pretty ok career with 3. I encourage families to watch ESPN games with the sound OFF. I also encourage them to study and figure out the difference between good pitching and bad hitting, they are not the same thing. Although the tricky part is they can be the same. Sometimes a great pitcher can make a good hitting team look silly. But, that's always the case and knowing the difference is a path to pitching wisdom. Anyway, sorry everyone. Just needed to vent.

Scrise and crop gave me the thought of a flop—fastball left over plate. I know, someone probably already said that.