Actions leading to connection

[Ken Krause]

Rather than continuing the debate on whether to start a thread or not on the Bat Drag thread, I've gone ahead and gotten it started. What actions do you see as leading to connection?

I'll go first. I like to keep it simple. For me connection is getting away from the notion that the swing is in the hands. Hitters who do that launch the hands too early, creating all kinds of issues. Some start right away, which leads to no turning of the body, dropping the hands to the same height as the ball, and making a very long, dragging swing. Sometimes it includes casting too, but not always.

Some hitters will start the body rotating, but won't really develop power as they do it. They give a token turn, then launch the hands too early. They again will tend to drop the hands toward the ball and create a long, looping swing.

What I like to see is the hands doing very little for most of the swing. They might "twist" the hands a bit at load (pointing the barrel of the bat more toward the pitcher), but for the most part I like to see them stay connected to the back shoulder. In other words, as the body rotates the hands remain somewhere along the back shoulder, not behind it. They don't do anything until well into the rotation, when they start to deliver the barrel of the bat to the ball.

This is what I've found to produce the best results in the hitters I've worked with. It's the opposite of the way most young hitters (and many of their coaches) think. But the more you get hitters away from swinging with the hands, the better they tend to hit.

Ok, that's my story. What do you guys think?

 

[Chris O'Leary]

For me connection is getting away from the notion that the swing is in the hands. Hitters who do that launch the hands too early, creating all kinds of issues. Some start right away, which leads to no turning of the body, dropping the hands to the same height as the ball, and making a very long, dragging swing. Sometimes it includes casting too, but not always.

This is my experience, too.

That is why discussion of early activation of the hands makes me very nervous. What kids do is they hold the shoulders still and sweep the bat head around independently and slowly with their arms. As a result, my first inclination is to take the hands out of the equation and get them rotating the shoulders to rotate the bat.

They give a token turn, then launch the hands too early. They again will tend to drop the hands toward the ball and create a long, looping swing.

Absolutely.

What I like to see is the hands doing very little for most of the swing. They might "twist" the hands a bit at load (pointing the barrel of the bat more toward the pitcher), but for the most part I like to see them stay connected to the back shoulder. In other words, as the body rotates the hands remain somewhere along the back shoulder, not behind it. They don't do anything until well into the rotation, when they start to deliver the barrel of the bat to the ball.

Agree, again (and again).

The hands aren't dead, because they have to maintain the position of the barrel of the bat relative to the back shoulder, but kids' inclination is to get hyperactive with their hands (which I call Hyper Hands) so you have to calm them down a bit.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Rather than continuing the debate on whether to start a thread or not on the Bat Drag thread, I've gone ahead and gotten it started. What actions do you see as leading to connection?

I'll go first. I like to keep it simple. For me connection is getting away from the notion that the swing is in the hands. Hitters who do that launch the hands too early, creating all kinds of issues. Some start right away, which leads to no turning of the body, dropping the hands to the same height as the ball, and making a very long, dragging swing. Sometimes it includes casting too, but not always.

Some hitters will start the body rotating, but won't really develop power as they do it. They give a token turn, then launch the hands too early. They again will tend to drop the hands toward the ball and create a long, looping swing.

What I like to see is the hands doing very little for most of the swing. They might "twist" the hands a bit at load (pointing the barrel of the bat more toward the pitcher), but for the most part I like to see them stay connected to the back shoulder. In other words, as the body rotates the hands remain somewhere along the back shoulder, not behind it. They don't do anything until well into the rotation, when they start to deliver the barrel of the bat to the ball.

This is what I've found to produce the best results in the hitters I've worked with. It's the opposite of the way most young hitters (and many of their coaches) think. But the more you get hitters away from swinging with the hands, the better they tend to hit.

Ok, that's my story. What do you guys think?

Connection is the linkage of body segments. In this particular case the linkage being discussed is between the “hands/barrel” and the “upper thorax”.

The “connection” made between the “hands” and “upper thorax” can be thought of as a mini-series of 'actions' … 1) the initiation of external rotation of the rear upper arm (rear humerus); 2) and in the context of the rear arm, forearm supination … or forearm/hand swivel. These two actions should flow seamlessly, and will serve to form a “connection” between the hands/barrel and the upper thorax.

With respect to the above comment about the concerns of the hands being launched to early … that is an “arms” issue. The reason some folks consider this a “hands” issue is because they are thinking about moving the hands linearly toward contact … and linear movement towards contact is not what is meant by “active hands”. That is an issue of "active arms".

With respect to the above comment about dropping the hands … that is a failure to actively create a complete “connection” between the “hands” and “upper thorax” on a timely basis. This happens because the hands/forearms are not being given an ‘active’ role upon swing initiation … and this lessens the ‘connection’, resulting in slack being created, wherein the hands will prematurely drop until the slack is taken up.

As to the comment of the hands doing very little … try this experiment … arrive in your launch position, freeze the barrel in your hands, allow zero forearm/hand rotation, and rotate your thorax such that it is square with the pitcher … if you truly froze your hands/forearms, then the barrel will not be at ‘contact’, but is instead pointed back towards the catcher … not what you are looking for. Not done … because the answer I expect is that the hands will move late. Okay … then let’s have you run another experiment. Video your swing with zero action in the hands/forearms at swing initiation and rely totally on late hand/forearm movement to arrive at contact … then review your video. In reviewing your video take note of the “rearward C”, or more appropriate, the lack of a quality “rearward C”. Perform the mouse test and see if it is indeed “rearward”. If you end up lacking a quality “rearward C”, then you are likely pulling the barrel at swing initiation, as in pulling along the length of the barrel, which is basically dragging the barrel.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

As to the comment of the hands doing very little … try this experiment … arrive in your launch position, freeze the barrel in your hands, allow zero forearm/hand rotation, and rotate your thorax such that it is square with the pitcher … if you truly froze your hands/forearms, then the barrel will not be at ‘contact’, but is instead pointed back towards the catcher … not what you are looking for.

This is a bogus demonstration.

What good hitters do is they hold the hinge angle and then release the bat head at the appropriate time.

If you do this correctly, and release the bat head when it's time (when the hands turn the corner), then the bat head will whip out into the path of the ball all on its own.

The problem, as Ken has pointed out, is that most kids activate the hands too early and try to rotate the bat head into contact using the hands and arms. They end up sweeping the bat head instead of letting it whip.

Video your swing with zero action in the hands/forearms at swing initiation and rely totally on late hand/forearm movement to arrive at contact … then review your video. In reviewing your video take note of the “rearward C”, or more appropriate, the lack of a quality “rearward C”. Perform the mouse test and see if it is indeed “rearward”. If you end up lacking a quality “rearward C”, then you are likely pulling the barrel at swing initiation, as in pulling along the length of the barrel, which is basically dragging the barrel.

This is a straw man.

Nobody that I know of preaches dead hands at the start of the swing. Instead, the job of the hands is to set and then maintain the hinge angle until it's time to release the bat head.

There is a third way, which is the right way.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Not a straw man CO.

At least you are now acknowledging that the hands are "active" at "swing initiation" ... which I translate from your statement that "nobody preaches dead hands at the start of the swing". More progress. This is good.

Try to produce the "rearward C" with "inactive hands" at swing initiation. Then see what 'active hands' does for you. Take note of your ability to establish how far rearward the 'C' extends based on the action of the hands/forearms.

As a reminder, here is the "rearward C" you are trying to demonstrate. You want to see the "C" extend rearward behind where the knob of the barrel was in your "ready position".

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Not a straw man CO.

At least you are now acknowledging that the hands are "active" at "swing initiation" ... which I translate from your statement that "nobody preaches dead hands at the start of the swing". More progress. This is good.

Please lose the condescending tone.

My beliefs haven't changed.

Your suggestion they have is part of the straw man.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Please lose the condescending tone.

My beliefs haven't changed.

Your suggestion they have is part of the straw man.

Gladly ... but didn't you write "This is a bogus demonstration."

The demonstration was far from bogus. It demonstrates clearly that any concept of "dead hands" is foolish.

Seriously ... I'd love to keep this on a technical level.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Gladly ... but didn't you write "This is a bogus demonstration."

The demonstration was far from bogus. It demonstrates clearly that any concept of "dead hands" is foolish.

Nobody teaches this, so it's a bogus example that neither proves nor demonstrates anything.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Nobody teaches this, so it's a bogus example that neither proves nor demonstrates anything.

It is a simple enough experiment CO. Those that wish to believe that the hands/forearms are not active may not like it ... but the point is that the hands/forearms are indeed active.

Go ahead and video your swing while you test the degree of how active the hands should be. See what it takes to send the 'C' rearward. Go as far as to 'sell out' to the hands & forearms and check the "rearward C". You may notice a few other niceties.

 

[RayR]

The more I read through these debates and the longer I coach and work with hitters the more I believe the better hitters use their arms and hands better then the rest.

Dropping the hands or locking the hands at the shoulder and turning are different ways of not using the arms/hands correctly. Watch a good hitter hit inside pitches and outside pitches and watch how they use their hands/arms. The other thing the better hitters do is release the top hand into and through contact. And truth of the matter is that some kids get it and others will never figure it out. This is another example of using the hands.

Connection might be understanding how to use your legs/torso to support the hands/arms. For example, on an inside pitch a hitter needs to open the hips sooner to allow the hands to stay inside longer. Or on an outside pitch the hips will open a little later and not rotate as much so that the arms do not get pulled off.