What would an umpire consider a aggressive move towards a runner while in the circle?

[02Crush]

Okay so when I first joined the group last year I had a post about how I did not like the look back rule. In that post I learned a lot from being properly schooled by a few good folks on here....So I need your help Comp, MTR, Bretman and others.....

Each time we play and a call is made on the look back rule I have found consistently there is a difference in defining what is considered aggressive on the part of the pitcher in relation to the runner while on the circle.

I have been told if the ball is in the throwing hand and slightly pulled away from the body...
I have been told if the ball is raised above the shoulder (??? b/c I can throw the ball and not have my elbow up)
I have been told and aggressive turn to the runner...
Etc...etc...

This past week out lead off batter hit a shot over 1st base into the deep right field. She ran all the way to 3rd rounded the bag and stopped. As she round third the pitcher caught the ball as a cut off (not in the circle). The pitcher ran into the circle over to the 3rd base side of the circle and raised her arm with the ball to about her sternum watching my runner. My 3rd base coach sent the runner back when the pitcher stopped her aggressive move by lowering her arm. This all happened in about 3-5 seconds. As soon as the runner touched 3rd base bag the field umpire called her out based on the look back rule. He told me it was about the time she stood there past the bag...I told him she stood there until the pitcher was no longer making an aggressive move and then went back immediately upon the end of said move.

So am I wrong? Still not a fan of this rule as it does not let the girls play ball however I understand trying to keep a game on time and in line when they are timed.

As always, any help in perspective is appreciated.

 

[Comp]

All the classes I have been in we are taught if the pitcher does something that gets your attention, it should be considered a play on the runner because it probably also made them freeze. But, we have also been told that while raising the throwing arm up in cocked position is initially a play, if they just stand there and hold the ball doing nothing, then it is no longer a play.

 

[CoogansBluff]

The pitcher ran into the circle over to the 3rd base side of the circle and raised her arm with the ball to about her sternum watching my runner. My 3rd base coach sent the runner back when the pitcher stopped her aggressive move by lowering her arm.

I don't know the look back rule well enough myself, so expect my comments to be refuted, but ...

The way you're telling the story here, the pitcher entered the circle first and THEN raised her arm. If your runner didn't commit to a base when the pitcher entered the circle, then that's grounds to be called out, since the pitcher had yet to 'threaten' the runner. But if the pitcher ran into the circle WHILE in throwing position, making advances toward the runner, then the look-back rule is not in effect. That's my guess.

 

[BretMan]

But, we have also been told that while raising the throwing arm up in cocked position is initially a play, if they just stand there and hold the ball doing nothing, then it is no longer a play.

I don't believe that I've ever been told, or heard, or read that bolded part (and I thought that I'd pretty much heard it all). Maybe I am misunderstanding. Do you mean if they stand there with the arm up in what could be considered as a "ready to throw position", but do nothing, it is no longer "making/faking a play"? Or so you mean just standing there with the throwing arm and ball down by the sides?

The first bit of advice I might give is to forget about using the term "making an aggresive move" to describe the pitcher's actions. That phrase doesn't appear in the rule and might cause more confusion than it clears up. I would focus on whether or not the pitcher is either "making a play" or "faking a play" as those are the requirements specifically spelled out in the rule.

"Making a play" is pretty easy to spot. When you stop and think about it, there are really only two ways that a pitcher in the circle can make a play on a runner- either by throwing the ball to another fielder or by making a tag attempt herself.

The most obvious play by the pitcher would be a throw. The next most obvious would the pitcher exiting the circle with the ball, as if she was going to attempt a tag herself. Also obvious- if the pitcher releases the ball on a throw she no longer has possession of it and if she exits the circle to make a tag she is no longer within the circle, both of which mean that the look back rule is no longer in effect anyways.

"Faking a play" is a little less clear-cut and requires some judgment on the umpire's part. What might be considered as "faking a play"?

The first thing I would consider is if whatever the pitcher did could reasonably make a runner think a play was being attempted. If you go by that definition- and keeping in mind that there are only two ways the pitcher could possibly retire the runner, with a throw or a tag- I would look for some sort of action that simulates either of those.

The easiest one to judge is if the pitcher simulates a throwing motion with the arm, but does not release the ball. A runner might react to that about the same as if an actual throw was being made.

I would consider holding the ball/throwing arm up into a "throwing position", or a position from which a throw might reasonably be made, even without any arm motion, as faking a play (though I might have to re-think that one depending on how Comp explains what I quoted above).

If the pitcher takes several steps toward the runner, as if she was going to exit the circle to attempt a tag, but didn't actually exit the circle, I would consider that as faking a play. Just like on a fake throw, a runner would likely react the same to that as if the pitcher really was exiting the circle.

One thing I would not consider faking a play is when the pitcher simply turns in place, arm not in a throwing position, to look at the runner- no matter how hard or "aggresive" the turn is. Such a move simulates neither a throw or a tag attempt, so I would have to say it does not simulate one of the two ways a pitcher can make a play.

 

[Comp]

Bretman, this was directly from Emily Alexander at this years FED preseason clinics and she was presenting the lookback rule. She indicated the initial cocking of the arm would be considered a play, but then if the pitcher does nothing else, just stands with the arm cocked (becomes a statue holding the ball), not moving, not acting like they are going to throw the ball etc. it becomes nothing and the lookback rule should be considered to be back on. But again, she also indicated if the pitcher does something that catches your attention and makes you as an umpire react, it would also most likely make the runner react.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Bretman, this was directly from Emily Alexander at this years FED preseason clinics and she was presenting the lookback rule. She indicated the initial cocking of the arm would be considered a play, but then if the pitcher does nothing else, just stands with the arm cocked (becomes a statue holding the ball), not moving, not acting like they are going to throw the ball etc. it becomes nothing and the lookback rule should be considered to be back on. But again, she also indicated if the pitcher does something that catches your attention and makes you as an umpire react, it would also most likely make the runner react.

Seriously? This is the most assinine thing I've heard in quite a while. Like there's not enough confusion over this POS rule by both umpires, players, and coaches to begin with.

 

[MTR]

Y'all just cannot help yourselves, can you?

Everyone has an opinion of what the umpire "should" think and then wants to apply different levels of different actions that could or could not meet the requirements of this or that.

Maybe Bill Clinton can help us define what "is" is.

Get rid of the rule. It has outlived any possible usefulness it may have once had. The sole purpose for keeping this rule in play is to satisfy the so-called traditionalist who mistakenly insist it must exist as FP softball is a "live ball" game.

The manner in which it should be handled is already in place and EVERY umpire working a slowpitch game handle this same situation dozens of times each game.

 

[BretMan]

Bretman, this was directly from Emily Alexander at this years FED preseason clinics and she was presenting the lookback rule...

Thanks for the clarification. I can honestly say that in all of the discussions of the LBR I've ever been a part of, I have never heard that interpretation. Emily is obviously someone we who might be considered "an authorative source" for softball rules. I'd be curious to know if other equally authorative sources would agree with that- maybe her interpretation is more of a personal opinion as opposed to any published, long-standing or widely accepted interpretation.

Regardless, I don't think it would make much difference in how I would call this rule. Of the 100+ games I work every year, the LBR is mostly a non-issue. I might call it maybe twice a year (and, yes, I am watching for it!). It usually comes up in lower-level rec leagues and usually involves a runner just standing stationary off a base, usually third base, to taunt a pitcher while the pitcher does nothing. Even then, I might wait a couple of more seconds longer than usual before invoking the rule since the players are less experienced and it usually has zero bearing on the play.

I can't even remember the last time I called this at the tournament level or in a high school game. There, the players seem to be coached to hustle back to the base no matter what. In fact, I usually see them hustle back before they even have to, like before the batter-runner has even reached first base. They don't just play it safe- they play it overly-safe, probably in fear of being called out by the mysterious Look Back Rule!

I could live with dumping this rule. Like MTR said, it could be handled without needing a complicated rule. Just make it so that if the runner isn't advancing and the pitcher isn't actually making a play, the umpire declares the ball dead- like in slow pitch.

In the meantime...it is still a rule and, as such, one that we must enforce. What I posted above is an explanation of how I might personally judge "faking a play", not a set-in-stone explanation for how every umpire out there might judge it. I think that what I posted is in-line with the spirit and intent of the rule and how I have had it presented to me in classes and clinics. While every individual umpire's judgment might vary, if their judgment is based on some common guidelines the rule can be applied in the most consistent manner.

 

[Comp]

Bretman, sent you a pm about a possible glove repair, dont know if you got it or not.

As you have said, it is more or less a none issue and I rarely call it. Again, typically lower level or younger age kids trying to play around with the pitcher. When I do see it at the older or more advanced levels it is typically a coach who has devised some strategy attempting to use the rule to their advantage.

 

[MTR]

Okay, let's get this out of the "hearsay" column and rely on black and white

ASA 1.PLAY
An attempt by the defensive player to retire the offensive player. A pitch is not considered a play except as it relates to appeals.

ASA 8.7.T.1-3e.EXCEPTION The runner will not be declared out if

1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play.

ASA RS#34

J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgment, causes the runner to react is considered making a play.

I agree, EA is an authoritive source, but the comment previously made may have been an oversimplification. SPEAKING ASA, what is the first act of a throw, or fake throw, with the majority, if not all, players? Would you not consider it to be the raising of the arm with the ball in the hand?

Can the pitcher not throw the ball to retire the runner from that position? Would that not qualify as meeting the definiton of a "play"?

I can tell you that in my judgment, a pitcher with the ball in hand of the arm raised in a throwing position facing a runner will be considered in the act of making a play.