Walter Johnson and Fastpitch

[sluggers]

It is Christmas break...so, just for fun, take a look at the immortal Walter Johnson (412-279, with lifetime ERA of 2.17, and 3500+Ks) . Go to about 40 seconds.

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Johnson throws side arm. Look at the arm whip and the follow through. Also, check out the finish of his "push off" leg. It ends behind the left leg.

It seems to me that if he were to drop his arm by 90 degrees, he would be a heck of a softball pitcher.

 

[halskinner]

The closest pitching style to his I have seen would be the old time slingshot style pitchers. I am told it is still being taught by a few of the pitchers that used it in their careers, however, I have only heard of a few that are left. I have not seen one of them in a tourny since I was quite young, back in the mid or late 60's and most of them were considered 'Old timers' even then..

They appeared to me then to have EVERY BIT as much ball movement as the windmill pitchers and seemed to have 95% plus of the speed also.

From that sidearm release, boy o boy, I'll bet he could throw curves and variations that would just tear the hitters up!

 

[Hillhouse]

It's my opinion that slingshot pitchers went out because windmill is more effective. As we learn more about how to pitch and the way our bodies are actually designed to work, we find that the windmill motion produces more power than slingshot. Just as technology and advancements has changed the way we view and teach hitting, the same is true for pitching. We've learned more about our bodies. "Squish the bug" is not taught in hitting anymore (by most) because we've found that our bodies aren't actually at their peak doing this. For sure Herb Dudley and Joan Joyce were 2 of the most successful pitchers in their time and both were slingshot. But then this becomes a generational question about whether they've had had the same successes facing today's hitters doing that. Probably not. They aren't using cork balls and wood bats anymore. And in Joyce's case, her numbers are staggering. But look how far women's softball has come since her era. To think she'd be anywhere as close to today's pitchers using slingshot is out of the question. Believe me, as much money and time goes into studying the body and knowing what works best, if sling was even CLOSE to the same, the Olympic people would've been pushing it. Its' not.

Yea, I'll bet Hal is right.. he could throw curves and such from the sidearm release. He could also tear his shoulder up. Why aren't their too many Sidearm pitchers anymore in baseball? Answer: they get hurt too easily, our bodies aren't made that way.

Bill

 

[halskinner]

"Yea, I'll bet Hal is right.. he could throw curves and such from the sidearm release. He could also tear his shoulder up. Why aren't their too many Sidearm pitchers anymore in baseball? Answer: they get hurt too easily, our bodies aren't made that way.

Bill"

Not sure when the section in the rulebooks came out that says the windmill circle has to be on the same plane as the body but, it surely came about for that very reason; to eliminate any sidearm stuff.

Hal

 

[CoachFP]

Bill, you may remember a guy named Dennis Amiel (sp?) who played for Rocky a year or two among other teams. That was late 80's early 90's. He was a sling shotter. Real tough to bat against if you never saw it. Back in 1981 a sling shot guy with Ashland almost won the Major Nationals and lost to Dave Scott in the If Game. According to Rick Pauly, you can get at least 90% of your speed doing the K Drill. So I imagine that would hold true for slingshot if not more. I saw Reno Lato pitch sling shot on the sidelines and he could really bring it harder than most pitchers with the windmill.

 

[Hillhouse]

While I respect Rick a lot, I just don't agree that that much of your power is achieved doing the K drill. Like Reno Lato, I too have tried the slingshot thing playing 9man modified pitch (for those that don't know, modified pitch is played primarily on the East coast and does not allow for full windmill action). Yes, there are some who can bring some velocity and still achieve movement. However, which do you think Reno would've thrown, given the choice, if playing a high quality team? My guess is he'd want to throw Windmill. I know of no pitchers who throw both windmill and slingshot who are even remotely close when comparing the 2 forms of pitching, in terms of velocity. If you believe that pitching power is mostly produced from the legs, as I do believe, then it's unrealistic to think the same can be done via slingshot as windmill. Reno was/is a pretty strong guy and was achieving a lot of that speed through muscle, not necessarily mechanics. Of course that's just my opinion. More body momentum and thrust is created by the entire body than just 1/2 of it in slingshot.

Yes, I remember Dennis Amell. I saw him throw in Elkland. He did have a funky motion but ultimately, I don't think he was ranked real high in the world of pitchers. I think he got by primarily because his motion was deceptive. Had you (and other good hitters) seen him more than 2 times per year, I don't think it'd have been too difficult to pick it up. Same for Dewey Dyck.. once you got past his hop, skip and jump, there wasn't a great deal to him. Not a lot of movement, not a TON of velocity. But it was deceptive.

Bill

 

[PEPPERS]

Ever heard of Jone Joyce a sling shot pitcher who legend has that she was clocked at 116 MPH, although she claims it was more like in the 70’s.

Joan Joyce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia

During her softball career, Joyce's pitches were reportedly clocked at more than 116 mph (186 km/h), but Joyce disputes this and says her pitches "probably were in the 70s." [2] In exhibition games, she struck out Ted Williams at Municipal Stadium in Waterbury, Connecticut in 1961 (also during a brief stint in 1966) and Hank Aaron in 1978.[1]

Joyce was co-founder (with Billie Jean King, Jim Jorgensen and Dennis Murphy) of the Women’s Professional Softball League in 1976 and the coach and part owner of the Connecticut Falcon Team (which won the Championship all four years of the leagues history).

Joyce was inducted into the National Softball Hall of Fame in 1983.[3] She was inducted into the International Softball Federation Hall of Fame in 1999.[4]

 

[halskinner]

Ever heard of Jone Joyce a sling shot pitcher who legend has that she was clocked at 116 MPH, although she claims it was more like in the 70’s.

Joan Joyce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia

Read the Wikipedia article but this is the first I ever heard of Joan throwing that speed.

I DID hear of Eddie Feigner throwing that speed in the late 40's. That reading was accomplished with a large motorcycle going past him and Eddie pitching at the motorcycle. Their was a 2nd man with a camera (TV camera) on the back of the scooter. They made many passes and finally pictured it staying even with the bike, 116mph if I remember correctly. No radar then and that was hi-tech for the 40's.

Rich Hoppe was clocked, I believe, at 108 throwing along side Carlton Fiske (I believe). That was with a radar gun on a tv.

I wonder if Wikipedia confused Eddie's numbers with Joan's? Dont know but both were awesome.

Got to see Eddie once when I was a kid, never had the pleasure of seeing Joan.

 

[PEPPERS]

Found this article on Joan.

APSE | Associated Press Sports Editors

One study at the University of Southern California in the mid-'60s determined that Joyce threw 118 mph. The study examined the reaction time of batters swinging at a ball from 40 feet, the softball distance from the mound to the plate. That would have been faster than a fastball from Walter Johnson or Sandy Koufax.

Joyce doesn't believe it. She said her pitches were never timed with a speed gun.

"They probably were in the 70s," she said. Still, to a batter 40 feet away, they may have looked 118 mph.

If she threw in the 70's using the sling shot that's as fast as the best pitchers today.

 

[Hillhouse]

Agreed. She threw hard. Not sure I believe 70's though. Everyone remembers things from the past with a little distortion. Eddie Feigner claiming to have thrown 104 is laughable. I liked Eddie a lot but, no freaking way. Today's pitchers are stepping back off the rubber, jumping, re-jumping and are stronger than ever. The fastest guy today is throwing 86. No way they threw harder using antiquated rules.

Moreover, look at the advancements in women's softball from Joyce's era. They are astounding. IMHO, she was simply well ahead of her time.

BIll