Softball Slider???

[jfitch12]

Sliders use a different subset of physics than curves.

They really don’t (at least in my observation of a lot of both). The spin is not meaningfully different between a softball curve and a baseball slider. The reason is that no one, or almost no one, throws a true 9-3 curve in softball (where the axis is perpendicular to the ground). The axis points up and to the glove slide (in most cases), and then it truly is just like a slider. In others, the curve has more rise in it, so the axis points up and arm side. Either way it has a strong gyro component.


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[sluggers]

They really don’t (at least in my observation of a lot of both). The spin is not meaningfully different between a softball curve and a baseball slider. The reason is that no one, or almost no one, throws a true 9-3 curve in softball (where the axis is perpendicular to the ground). The axis points up and to the glove slide (in most cases), and then it truly is just like a slider. In others, the curve has more rise in it, so the axis points up and arm side. Either way it has a strong gyro component.


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Nope.

The physics of a curveball or drop curve is based on the Magnus Force relating to spinning bodies where the spin axis is perpendicular to the direction of the ball.

The slider has the axis of rotation generally colinear with the direction of the ball. The movement is caused by having the axis of rotation slightly tilted from the direction of movement, causing the seams to be asymmetric in the direction of movement. The assymetry causes the drag on one side of the ball to be different from the drag on the other side of the ball, resulting in movement. This is the same physics behind the bulletspin rise and bulletspin screwball.

If you look at this video of Rachel Garcia rise, you can see that the axis of rotation is general colinear with the direction of the ball. The axis of rotation is tilted.

 

[jfitch12]

The physics of a curveball or drop curve is based on the Magnus Force relating to spinning bodies where the spin axis is perpendicular to the direction of the ball.

We are talking past each other. My point is that virtually all softball curves (and every one I have seen at game speed) spin like a slider in baseball. Curves in softball do not spin with an axis that is perpendicular to the direction of flight. The axis is colinear and slightly tipped. So the physics is the same because the spin is the same. It's that simple.

Go back and consider how Boardmember described the spin on the curve that he taught: "football thrown forward but with the nose orientated slightly up and to the left of the linear direction of travel" for a RH'd pitcher." https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/curve-spin.25146/page-3

Or the video posted above where Bonds refers to Finch's curve as a slider.

Or Paige Parker pitching to Butera: "ooh cutter"


Or go get any college-level pitcher and put her on a Rapsodo and look at what comes out. It's bullet spin with the nose up and slightly to the side, the very spin described in the opening post on this thread.

 

[ArmWhip]

Due to the fixed arm slot and the age range of 99% of the pitchers, the clock is more than enough for softball.

If you want to talk in general terms the clock is fine, but if you want to talk about pitch design you need to be more specific. A 'classic 3-9' curve ball with a vertical spin axis will not have as much late break as a 3-9 curve with the spin axis tilted forward about 20 degrees. When working with a pitcher I prefer the latter, thus I will talk about the spin axis in 3 dimensions and not just the 2 dimensions that a clock has.

The slider has the axis of rotation generally colinear with the direction of the ball. The movement is caused by having the axis of rotation slightly tilted from the direction of movement, causing the seams to be asymmetric in the direction of movement. The assymetry causes the drag on one side of the ball to be different from the drag on the other side of the ball, resulting in movement. This is the same physics behind the bulletspin rise and bulletspin screwball.

The baseball slider is not an SSW pitch. In order for a seam to cause break on a bullet spin pitch the spin axis needs to be tilted about 38 degrees from the direction of travel, that is a long way from 'colinear'. And an SSW pitch requires a very specific grip/seam orientation which will vary with each individual pitcher.

 

[jdint]

The baseball slider is not an SSW pitch. In order for a seam to cause break on a bullet spin pitch the spin axis needs to be tilted about 38 degrees from the direction of travel, that is a long way from 'colinear'. And an SSW pitch requires a very specific grip/seam orientation which will vary with each individual pitcher.

Do you know this thru trial and error, or is there a source out there a brother could reference? (serious question, not trying to call you out)

 

[sluggers]

When working with a pitcher I prefer the latter, thus I will talk about the spin axis in 3 dimensions and not just the 2 dimensions that a clock has

Great. Whateve works for you.

The baseball slider is not an SSW pitch. In order for a seam to cause break on a bullet spin pitch the spin axis needs to be tilted about 38 degrees from the direction of travel, that is a long way from 'colinear'. And an SSW pitch requires a very specific grip/seam orientation which will vary with each individual pitcher.

My head is filled with too many acronyms. What does SSW mean?

 

[jdint]

Great. Whateve works for you.

My head is filled with too many acronyms. What does SSW mean?

seam shifted wake i believe

 

[RADcatchers]

How to Throw a Slider or Sweeper (Grips, Cues, etc.)

An extensive review of both the gyro and sweeper slider pitch, from grips to desired movement profile with videos and MLB examples of each.

rocklandpeakperformance.com

 

[RADcatchers]

Seam Shifted Wakes Explained for Young Pitchers - TopVelocity

Discover the impact of Seam Shifted Wakes on baseball pitching, enhancing pitch movement and providing a competitive edge for pitchers.

www.topvelocity.net

 

[Rolling Hard]

If you miss with a rise ball over the plate, you might get a pop out. If you miss with a drop ball over the plate, you might get a ground out. If you miss with a good CU over the plate, you might get a swing and a miss. If you miss with a flat curve ball over the plate (righty vs righty) the ball usually finds the barrel and goes a long ways. That's my experience. I don't care for a flat CB or slider or whatever you want to call it.