Softball Slider???

[CoachJD]

Someone has to explain to me why 'flat' break is bad.

Not bad. Less good.

If we can all agree that when we're talking about this movement, we acknowledge that every pitch moves, and this is "extra" break/movement. The kind that tricks the batter (as opposed to a normal "straight fastball" which has some vertical movement, and probably some horizontal movement, that's easier to read).

A ball moving in one direction (horizontally) is easier to adjust to than one moving two directions (horizontally and vertically).

Not just that, but between horizontal and vertical movement, vertical is better because a batter whose bat is on plane can still hit a pitch with horizontal movement even if they're fooled by the break. Not so with vertical. Or at least not as easily. All of this is in degrees with no absolutes.

 

[ArmWhip]

Not just that, but between horizontal and vertical movement, vertical is better because a batter whose bat is on plane can still hit a pitch with horizontal movement even if they're fooled by the break. Not so with vertical. Or at least not as easily.

Are you saying that the bat is horizontal when it's in the contact zone?

 

[Batman8]

This is a softball curve. And a baseball slider. They are the same pitch. Over the last ten years I have caught enough of both to be convinced that they are not really different. No softball pitcher I have ever seen gets true 9-3 sidespin. It always has a gyro component, just like you’ve described (and just as Board member described the cork screw curve a decade ago.) Likewise sliders in baseball can have more sweep or more depth but they are still a predominantly gyro pitch that moves because the axis is tipped up and to the glove side.

The point about location is key. This pitch is most effective thrown in the river on the glove side. Dig out the old video of Littlejohn throwing her curve and that’s what you are looking for. It is flatter than a lot of baseball sliders because it’s not thrown downhill, but it is still effective if located correctly (though not as effective as a true drop or rise).

My 2 cents anyway.


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Two seam softball is same grip as two seam baseball! Index and middle fingers along each seam, if the girl’s hand is big enough. The break is dependent on which finger has more pressure. Each person’s grip is a bit different. The break is only 2-6” to the side and down but results in ground balls. Since only two seams bite the air, its velocity is a bit higher than a four seam fastball.


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[Batman8]

Two seam softball is same grip as two seam baseball! Index and middle fingers along each seam, if the girl’s hand is big enough. The break is dependent on which finger has more pressure. Each person’s grip is a bit different. The break is only 2-6” to the side and down but results in ground balls. Since only two seams bite the air, its velocity is a bit higher than a four seam fastball.


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A pitcher from LSU had a good one some years ago.


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[CoachJD]

Are you saying that the bat is horizontal when it's in the contact zone?

Sometimes it's close to horizontal. Sometimes not.

But what I'm saying is adjusting to a ball breaking along a horizontal plane is easier than adjusting to a ball breaking along a vertical plane.

 

[ArmWhip]

But what I'm saying is adjusting to a ball breaking along a horizontal plane is easier than adjusting to a ball breaking along a vertical plane.

Why?? Is there any evidence showing this to be the case? Paul Skenes was the starter for the National League All Stars this year, here is a link to his Baseball Savant page, if you scroll down there is a 'pie chart' showing the movement profile of all of his pitches, there is very little vertical movement. Even his 4 seam fastball has more horizontal break than vertical.

Paul Skenes Stats: Statcast, Visuals & Advanced Metrics

(2024) Avg Exit Velocity: 88, Hard Hit %: 36.7, wOBA: .256, xwOBA: .260, Barrel %: 5.6.

baseballsavant.mlb.com

 

[El Oso]

Why?? Is there any evidence showing this to be the case? Paul Skenes was the starter for the National League All Stars this year, here is a link to his Baseball Savant page, if you scroll down there is a 'pie chart' showing the movement profile of all of his pitches, there is very little vertical movement. Even his 4 seam fastball has more horizontal break than vertical.

Paul Skenes Stats: Statcast, Visuals & Advanced Metrics

(2024) Avg Exit Velocity: 88, Hard Hit %: 36.7, wOBA: .256, xwOBA: .260, Barrel %: 5.6.

baseballsavant.mlb.com

100 mph velo has more to do with his success than the angle of movement.

 

[AHSCoachMH]

For a couple of years now I have been working with a 12U pitcher who throws a unique curveball. She doesn't know how she does it and can't repeat it when asked. She is very good at noticing break and can throw a legitimate riseball with 80% backspin as well as a pure top spin drop. So she has an above average feel and understanding when it comes to spinning the ball yet is mystified by this pitch. She tells me that in games there are times when all her 'fastballs' have this spin and break. Last week I began to work with an older left hand pitcher who throws the same breaking pitch, she can throw when asked and it is her curveball, but her explanation of how she throws it does not match how the ball spins. The ball has predominantly bullet spin with a spin axis that is elevated about 30 degrees and angled a little to the pitchers glove side. Since the lefty can repeat the pitch I took a lot of video and spent time looking at her release from several angles and looked at the ball flight also. I used the black spotted balls that I always use for spin work. Both pitchers use a three finger grip with the pinky curled up on the side of the ball. When looking at the pitch from the catcher's POV I can see the pinky leading into release and if there is a black dot under the pinky that dot becomes the spin axis for the ball. The easiest way to think about this release is that it is like throwing a football spiral underhand, except the nose is angled up more. As the ball moves past the apex of it's flight and begins to descend the under belly of the ball will begin to receive more air flow so the ball will break in the direction of the spin, to left for a right hander and to the right for a lefty. One possible downside, as a pitcher picks up velocity her ball fight will be flatter and this pitch might not break as much.

Good morning.

This is actually how we teach the "curve ball". By having the pinky lead, you can teach them to vary the vertical as they develop the pitch as well. If we want it down, we drive the pinking down, and the fingers follow that axis. If we won't to spin it up, we drive the pinky up, with a little spinal tilt, and create a bullet rise. We label our vertical pitches with colors, so the curveball down is a blue and the curveball up is a yellow. Regular curve is a black.

All other aspects of the curve are the same, we just focus really hard on getting the pinky to the belly button before finishing with the fingers.

 

[ArmWhip]

100 mph velo has more to do with his success than the angle of movement.

Okay, fair enough. How about Aaron Bummer, the MLB leader in exit velocity and barrel percentage combined. His favorite pitch is his sweeper, 82 mph. Check out his pitch movement profile.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/aaron-bummer-607481?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

 

[LEsoftballdad]

The stats and graphs they have on these pitchers are insane. And is that guy's last name really Bummer? That had to be rough growing up with that name.