USA SOFTBALL: Runner on second base, 2 outs. Next batter hits a home run over the fence. The runner from second base comes home but fails to touch it. One of her teammate’s notices, grabs her and assists her back to home plate as the girl that hit the home run rounds third. She is properly ruled out. Do we still count the run by the girl that hit the home run?
Score the run?
- Thread starter umpwally
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- Jul 4, 2015
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NOPE Out occured before she scored
- May 29, 2015
- 3,815
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This is going to be fun ... 
... and I'll be honest, I screwed it up twice while researching it!
Was she called out properly?
USA states a runner is out when ...
Rule 8, Section 7 - THE RUNNER IS OUT
E. When any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner being assisted is out.
Exception – Section E: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate:
1 The ball is dead.
2 The runner is out and the run is nullified.
3 Runners must return to the last base touched at the time the ball became dead.
However, we all know that any ball that leaves the playing field is NOT a live ball, it is dead and play cannot continue on that play. A runner is NOT out according to Rule 8, Section 8P when ...
Rule 8, Section 8 THE RUNNER IS NOT OUT
P. When a runner legally returns to a base left too soon or missed prior to an appeal being made, or is returning to a base during a dead ball.
Additionally, the first section of the Rules Supplement talks about appeals and tells us
Supplement, Section 1 APPEALS
C(2):
When a ball goes out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead ball appeal can be made.
We don't have an appeal play, but this is worth noting that the runners must be given an opportunity to fix their error on a dead ball. Additionally, assisting is not considered during a dead ball.
So, was she called out properly? According to the rule that (I presume) was applied (8-7E), the ball had to be live and it was not. Now this gets interesting, and again I have an admission. I was going to stop there and say neither runner should have been called out since the "assist" rule applies to live balls ... but then I accidentally stumbled on this in a section that I would never have looked in:
Rule 8, Section 7
THE RUNNER IS OUT
D. When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior to the out for passing a preceding runner count.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner who passes the preceding runner is out.
3 Fast Pitch Only; On any over the fence home run all base runners and the batter-runner have live ball base running responsibilities. The batter-runner and any runner can be called out for passing a preceding runner. If this is the 3rd out any runs scored prior to the passing would count.
Back to square one!
She was called out "properly" but probably accidentally. Even on dead ball awards, runners have a responsibility to run the bases legally. USA takes this a step further and tasks runners with live ball responsibilities during a home run award.
Since it was the third out, the trailing run cannot score.
My brain hurts now.
... and I'll be honest, I screwed it up twice while researching it!Was she called out properly?
USA states a runner is out when ...
Rule 8, Section 7 - THE RUNNER IS OUT
E. When any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner being assisted is out.
Exception – Section E: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate:
1 The ball is dead.
2 The runner is out and the run is nullified.
3 Runners must return to the last base touched at the time the ball became dead.
However, we all know that any ball that leaves the playing field is NOT a live ball, it is dead and play cannot continue on that play. A runner is NOT out according to Rule 8, Section 8P when ...
Rule 8, Section 8 THE RUNNER IS NOT OUT
P. When a runner legally returns to a base left too soon or missed prior to an appeal being made, or is returning to a base during a dead ball.
Additionally, the first section of the Rules Supplement talks about appeals and tells us
Supplement, Section 1 APPEALS
C(2):
When a ball goes out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead ball appeal can be made.
We don't have an appeal play, but this is worth noting that the runners must be given an opportunity to fix their error on a dead ball. Additionally, assisting is not considered during a dead ball.
So, was she called out properly? According to the rule that (I presume) was applied (8-7E), the ball had to be live and it was not. Now this gets interesting, and again I have an admission. I was going to stop there and say neither runner should have been called out since the "assist" rule applies to live balls ... but then I accidentally stumbled on this in a section that I would never have looked in:
Rule 8, Section 7
THE RUNNER IS OUT
D. When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior to the out for passing a preceding runner count.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner who passes the preceding runner is out.
3 Fast Pitch Only; On any over the fence home run all base runners and the batter-runner have live ball base running responsibilities. The batter-runner and any runner can be called out for passing a preceding runner. If this is the 3rd out any runs scored prior to the passing would count.
Back to square one!
She was called out "properly" but probably accidentally. Even on dead ball awards, runners have a responsibility to run the bases legally. USA takes this a step further and tasks runners with live ball responsibilities during a home run award.
Since it was the third out, the trailing run cannot score.
My brain hurts now.
This is going to be fun ...
Was she called out properly?
USA states a runner is out when ...
Rule 8, Section 7 - THE RUNNER IS OUT
E. When any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner being assisted is out.
Exception – Section E: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate:
1 The ball is dead.
2 The runner is out and the run is nullified.
3 Runners must return to the last base touched at the time the ball became dead.
However, we all know that any ball that leaves the playing field is NOT a live ball, it is dead and play cannot continue on that play. A runner is NOT out according to Rule 8, Section 8P when ...
Rule 8, Section 8 THE RUNNER IS NOT OUT
P. When a runner legally returns to a base left too soon or missed prior to an appeal being made, or is returning to a base during a dead ball.
Additionally, the first section of the Rules Supplement talks about appeals and tells us
Supplement, Section 1 APPEALS
C(2):
When a ball goes out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead ball appeal can be made.
We don't have an appeal play, but this is worth noting that the runners must be given an opportunity to fix their error on a dead ball. Additionally, assisting is not considered during a dead ball.
So, was she called out properly? According to the rule that (I presume) was applied (8-7E), the ball had to be live and it was not. Now this gets interesting, and again I have an admission. I was going to stop there and say neither runner should have been called out since the "assist" rule applies to live balls ... but then I accidentally stumbled on this in a section that I would never have looked in:
Rule 8, Section 7
THE RUNNER IS OUT
D. When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior to the out for passing a preceding runner count.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner who passes the preceding runner is out.
3 Fast Pitch Only; On any over the fence home run all base runners and the batter-runner have live ball base running responsibilities. The batter-runner and any runner can be called out for passing a preceding runner. If this is the 3rd out any runs scored prior to the passing would count.
Back to square one!
She was called out "properly" but probably accidentally. Even on dead ball awards, runners have a responsibility to run the bases legally. USA takes this a step further and tasks runners with live ball responsibilities during a home run award.
Since it was the third out, the trailing run cannot score.
My brain hurts now.
Fortunately for me there we no outs when this happened but I started thinking about what would happen if there were 2 outs. I really don’t know. Perhaps there’s a case play that I need to reference? Anyway, yes, in my mind I was considering 8-7-E when I made the call. As you point out, that rules is in effect for a live ball. Also we aren’t dealing with a runner now. We are dealing with a runner that scored (presumably once she passed home plate). So I looked at 5-5-B. That comes close to addressing it but doesn’t really satisfy my situation. Im with you MIB..it’s a head banger
Could you give me a rule reference? I’ve looked a few things but I cant nail it down
- May 29, 2015
- 3,815
- 113
I started to go down the "no outs" path because it was EVEN GOOFIER! But I went cross-eyed before I got there.
If we are applying the live ball standard ... then the batter would be placed on a base and wouldn't even get the home run! The ball is dead at the time of interference and any previous runners are placed on the last base touched at the time ... in your case it sounds like she should have been placed at third base.
That would be a fun one to have to explain to the coach ... I'm betting some ejections and fan removals would be happening after that.
I also was trying to wrap my mind around, "Is she a runner since she passed home?" In my mind, I settled on "she technically is not defined as a runner by the letter, however she has not completed her duties as a runner so I am considering her still a runner." I feel that holds up in THIS case. I think.
In my case who do you think should have been placed at 3rd? The runner who was assisted back to home or the girl that hit the home run? I’m confused
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- May 29, 2015
- 3,815
- 113
The batter. You said she was rounding third when the runner who crossed was assisted back.
Rule 8, Section 7 - THE RUNNER IS OUT
E. When any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner being assisted is out.
Exception – Section E: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate:
1 The ball is dead.
2 The runner is out and the run is nullified.
3 Runners must return to the last base touched at the time the ball became dead.
Rule 8, Section 7 - THE RUNNER IS OUT
E. When any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live.
Effect:
1 The ball remains live.
2 The runner being assisted is out.
Exception – Section E: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate:
1 The ball is dead.
2 The runner is out and the run is nullified.
3 Runners must return to the last base touched at the time the ball became dead.
Why would I do that? The ball is dead. The runner ahead of her was ruled out for being assisted For the first out. How could I take the home run away from her and place her at 3rd?
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