Minnesota USSSA Fall state tournament. Not sure which organization's rules were being used but here is what happened. Team A is at bat, sometime during the inning with a runner on base and Team B pitcher has the ball in the circle. Team A's next batter is up, crosses home plate to get in the left hand batters box. the umpire calls that batter out for crossing home plate while the pitcher has the ball in the circle? I can honestly say I have seen batter's do that in all my years of playing and watching fastpitch but I have never seen a batter called out for doing so. Just want to know if the umpire is correct or not? Never heard of this rule before.
Rules clarification
- Thread starter djl913
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If time was called, the batter can do whatever she wants.
As stated, if time was called the batter can do what they want. As for the real rule, the pitcher must be in position to pitch, on the pitching plate with the catcher in position for the batter to be called out when they step across the plate. Merely being in the pitching circle is not part of the rule.
- Jul 28, 2008
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Solution: Call time and ask the PU if the pitcher was on the rubber. Then ask if the catcher was in position to pitch. Then ask if time was called. Then let him know that you are protesting his interpretation of the rule and his call.
If I was the coach, I think I would have told him that I would but you have to promise me you will do the same.
Couple of things here: A USSSA tournament is run under USSSA rules, which are mostly similar but not the same as ASA. Each youth code (ASA, PONY, USSSA, NFHS) has a variation of this rule. In USSSA its Rule 7-10: Disconcerting the Pitcher. The ball has to be live and the umpire's judgment has to be that the pitcher was ready to pitch. USSSA, unlike ASA, is any movement from one box to the other when pitcher's ready. That would include both crossing the plate and walking around the catcher/umpire without requesting time.
The USSSA rule says "pitcher is in position ready to pitch." It is umpire's judgment what is 'position ready to pitch.' I've seen some umps say a pitcher with the ball in her hand looking to home is 'ready.' Others (me included) start it when she's stepping on the pitching plate, as most pitchers have a set routine from that point forward. Since the pitch begins when the hands come together, ready to pitch must to be prior to that point. Its reasonable to say a pitcher with the ball in her hand standing behind the pitching plate looking toward home is ready to pitch. For whatever reason time was called, play is live again for this rule once the batter approaches the plate.
As described, the batter was walking to the opposite side box (right box) from the 3B dugout and lazily walked straight across the plate and not behind the catcher, that's always bad etiquette (especially with a runner on base) and is also illegal if the umpire judges the pitcher ready to pitch. I've seen this before when their are timeout situations between batters (say for the runner to brush off after a slide, coach conference, etc.) the batter zones out and then she runs straight over to the box after everyone's ready. Other scenarios I've seen is a RH batter/LH bunter starting to take the left box, remembering she wanted to bunt (or seeing the bunt sign) and then just walking across the plate to the right box. Most umps would not call that out, but as long as the ump's judgment is the pitcher was ready, then he's within the rules to call the batter out.
What is all-too-common, especially at 10U/12U/14U is a natural RH batter who is learning to drag bunt or bunt LH will move back to the left box after strike 2. The smart ones ask for time and walk around behind the catcher and umpire. But the nervous ones tend to just bolt across the plate. When I first started umpiring I used to just ring girls up for doing that if they didn't ask for time. As I became more experienced I became more judicious in using it. Tournaments (except showcases) and travel ball tend to get stricter enforcement than friendlies or rec games.
The central point of the rule is there's umpire judgment involved. You can appeal a rule interpretation, but not judgment. An umpire will consider play live once a new batter is approaching the plate, unless the player or coach specifically asks for time FOR THE BATTER or there's a timeout due to injury or something else still in progress when the batter comes to the plate.
As described this is a live ball situation for this rule. Pitcher sounds like she was in what an umpire could judge as a ready to pitch position.
You can't appeal a judgment call. Any UIC will simply ask the plate umpire two questions: "Was the ball live? The answer will be yes as its the umpire who determines if the ball was live again. The UIC will then ask 'was the pitcher ready to pitch.' Ump will answer yes. Then, by rule batter is out under 7-10. All the other stuff Shockcoach brought up is just wrong or irrelevant - coaches love to substitute their judgment for the umpires (I did when I coached) but that isn't how it works. Only the judgment of the umpire making the call matters.
Was it the smartest call? I couldn't judge that without seeing it. I doubt I would make that same call given how it was described - instead, I'd just tell the batter to walk around back next time. But was it a legal call? Without further mitigating information, yes it was and even if we didn't think it was (see IFR ruling in Cards-Braves playoff game), it is only the umpire's judgment that matters.
The USSSA rule says "pitcher is in position ready to pitch." It is umpire's judgment what is 'position ready to pitch.' I've seen some umps say a pitcher with the ball in her hand looking to home is 'ready.' Others (me included) start it when she's stepping on the pitching plate, as most pitchers have a set routine from that point forward. Since the pitch begins when the hands come together, ready to pitch must to be prior to that point. Its reasonable to say a pitcher with the ball in her hand standing behind the pitching plate looking toward home is ready to pitch. For whatever reason time was called, play is live again for this rule once the batter approaches the plate.
As described, the batter was walking to the opposite side box (right box) from the 3B dugout and lazily walked straight across the plate and not behind the catcher, that's always bad etiquette (especially with a runner on base) and is also illegal if the umpire judges the pitcher ready to pitch. I've seen this before when their are timeout situations between batters (say for the runner to brush off after a slide, coach conference, etc.) the batter zones out and then she runs straight over to the box after everyone's ready. Other scenarios I've seen is a RH batter/LH bunter starting to take the left box, remembering she wanted to bunt (or seeing the bunt sign) and then just walking across the plate to the right box. Most umps would not call that out, but as long as the ump's judgment is the pitcher was ready, then he's within the rules to call the batter out.
What is all-too-common, especially at 10U/12U/14U is a natural RH batter who is learning to drag bunt or bunt LH will move back to the left box after strike 2. The smart ones ask for time and walk around behind the catcher and umpire. But the nervous ones tend to just bolt across the plate. When I first started umpiring I used to just ring girls up for doing that if they didn't ask for time. As I became more experienced I became more judicious in using it. Tournaments (except showcases) and travel ball tend to get stricter enforcement than friendlies or rec games.
The central point of the rule is there's umpire judgment involved. You can appeal a rule interpretation, but not judgment. An umpire will consider play live once a new batter is approaching the plate, unless the player or coach specifically asks for time FOR THE BATTER or there's a timeout due to injury or something else still in progress when the batter comes to the plate.
As described this is a live ball situation for this rule. Pitcher sounds like she was in what an umpire could judge as a ready to pitch position.
You can't appeal a judgment call. Any UIC will simply ask the plate umpire two questions: "Was the ball live? The answer will be yes as its the umpire who determines if the ball was live again. The UIC will then ask 'was the pitcher ready to pitch.' Ump will answer yes. Then, by rule batter is out under 7-10. All the other stuff Shockcoach brought up is just wrong or irrelevant - coaches love to substitute their judgment for the umpires (I did when I coached) but that isn't how it works. Only the judgment of the umpire making the call matters.
Was it the smartest call? I couldn't judge that without seeing it. I doubt I would make that same call given how it was described - instead, I'd just tell the batter to walk around back next time. But was it a legal call? Without further mitigating information, yes it was and even if we didn't think it was (see IFR ruling in Cards-Braves playoff game), it is only the umpire's judgment that matters.
USSSA case play for 7-10
SITUATION F: The batter steps across in front of the catcher to the other batters box while the pitcher is
in position to pitch.
RULING: Illegal. The batter is out. (7-10)
It says nothing about if the batter walks around behind the catcher or if a new batter is walking up to bat. It is when a batter steps from one box to the other.
SITUATION F: The batter steps across in front of the catcher to the other batters box while the pitcher is
in position to pitch.
RULING: Illegal. The batter is out. (7-10)
It says nothing about if the batter walks around behind the catcher or if a new batter is walking up to bat. It is when a batter steps from one box to the other.
