Can't seem to get an answer from anyone on this video. I coached for several years in little league minors, majors and big league and always had great success training "my girls". I coached my daughters 12U little league, 12U Competive and her first year 14U comp team this past year. Together her and I have made her a fabulous player and now at the new season she was appoached and selected for an 18U A team. I always trained my girls to be aggressive and have a killer sportsman attitude. I got a video / CD from Marc Dagenais called Make things happen with Coach Sean Cotter of UMass. Great great great video of information. I do have a few questions from the video if anyone else seen it. I feel kind of dumb for asking, because I believed myself to be pretty knowledgable of the game. But, I am humble enough to shut up, ask and learn. In the video, Coach Sean talks about taking advantage of open bases when the other team is not paying attention or in position. ***He specifically mentions, with a runner on third base he has her ready to steal home at any time. He said, runner on third and batter pop flys a ball in foul territory, catcher rips off her mask and attempts the catch. With no success, the catcher returns to her position, picks up her mask, takes off her glove to use two hands to put her mask back on. The second the catcher takes off her glove with mask in hand, the third base runner takes off and steals home because the catcher is not ready for a return throw. Is that scenario possible? Can the runner steal a base at any time, or at what point can a base runner take off? If that CAN happen, can a runner on first base steal second base at anytime if the pitcher has not addressed the rubber? Because if she has addressed the rubber or started taking the signs, then the runner would be out for leaving early correct? Another question. *** Runner on first, batter hits to the infield and a setup for a double play. Now, I've learned this as a kid, and taught it myself, if you throw the ball to first base first, it gives the lead runner the option to return back to first base if the double play throw beats the runner to the bag. Now, from the video, I felt as if Coach Sean was saying that the batter can stop just shy of first base and it no longer makes a "force" at second until she touches first or a play attempt is made toward first. If the batter does not touch first base and no throw has been made to first yet, can the other runner technically return to first as stated in the above failed double play? It didn't sound right, and not how I've ever known it to be, but I have to ask. Thanks for anyones input.
Posted this elsewhere, can get a response. Open to anyone now.
- Thread starter changeupskill
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A force is a force. The batter doesn't need to go to first base for a force to exist. The runner at first doesn't need to go to second either. Once the Shortstop (as an example) touches second with the ball, the runner is out and can return to the dugout without going to the base. The ball, then thrown to first base forces the runner headed to first or stopped int he baseline. A ruuner headed to first can stop in the baseline but they will be forced or tagged out. If they go backwards in the baseline they are out.
Thats what I thought, and remembered from a hundred years ago when I was taught, but I watched that video again and thats what he was saying. I also picked up something else on the video. A batter hits a ball well and is pretty sure its a double or triple. He teaches to straighten out the bases as much as possible to get around them faster. ie the quickest way between two points is a straight line. I get that. But what the coach in the video does is sets a bucket about 5 feet down the first base line he said 3 or 4 feet outside the line. As soon as the batter hits the ball, she turns hard on the outside of the bucket going to 1st base to make the line to 2nd base straighter. His girls were 6 to 8 feet outside of the base path and into the coaches box. where they would be automatically out. I hope someone else has seen this video so you know I'm not making this up.
Suggesting that runners can advance on foul balls, or that force outs aren't in effect because the batter-runner hasn't touched first base yet are odd- and incorrect- notions. But angling away from a base to get a better angle rounding it is NOT a rule violation for "leaving the basepath".
The only time a runner is obligated to stay in a pre-defined basepath is when a fielder has the ball and is attempting a tag. At that instant, the runner's basepath is defined as a straight line directly to either the base she is heading to or the previous one she passed. If she deviates more than three feet away from that line, then she is out.
But when the defense doesn't have the ball, and they're not attempting a tag, and the runner isn't trying to avoid one, the runner can run anywhere she wants to. She could arc all the way over to the dugout fence, cross first base and run all the way to the right field wall, come back to cross second base, continue to the pitcher's mound, then go to third, then run to the other dugout fence before heading for home- as long as none of this circuitous path was part of an attempt to avoid an actual tag. It would be perfectly legal (though maybe a little stupid).
In short, the runner establishes her own basepath and it doesn't always have to be a straight line to the next base. Not until a fielder holding the ball actually tries to touch the runner is she obligated to stay within a defined basepath.
The only time a runner is obligated to stay in a pre-defined basepath is when a fielder has the ball and is attempting a tag. At that instant, the runner's basepath is defined as a straight line directly to either the base she is heading to or the previous one she passed. If she deviates more than three feet away from that line, then she is out.
But when the defense doesn't have the ball, and they're not attempting a tag, and the runner isn't trying to avoid one, the runner can run anywhere she wants to. She could arc all the way over to the dugout fence, cross first base and run all the way to the right field wall, come back to cross second base, continue to the pitcher's mound, then go to third, then run to the other dugout fence before heading for home- as long as none of this circuitous path was part of an attempt to avoid an actual tag. It would be perfectly legal (though maybe a little stupid).
In short, the runner establishes her own basepath and it doesn't always have to be a straight line to the next base. Not until a fielder holding the ball actually tries to touch the runner is she obligated to stay within a defined basepath.
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Really? I never knew that. I get what you are saying, run to the fence etc, silly, but legal. I knew the run away avoiding a tag part, but not the no defender part. Thanks
- Jun 11, 2010
- 17
- 0
Force Play and Basepath
First of all, let's cover the force.
It's the same as baseball. With a runner on first, a ground ball is hit to the 1st baseman. There is a force at second. However, if the 1st Baseman chooses to first go over and touch first base, it REMOVES the force play at second, and the runner CAN return to first base. So, if the 1st Baseman touches 1st and throws to second, the shortstop covering has to TAG the runner to get the out. This is the same for all bases including HOME. (bases loaded grounder to third, if the 3B touches third and throws home, the catcher has to tag the runner and the runner can try to go back to third.)
Now, the Basepath.
The basepath is the direct line from where the runner is (at any given moment) to the base they are going to. So, if a batter/runner hits the ball and runs through first base, and overruns it by 50 feet, the 'new' basepath is from 50 feet past first to second base. Drawing an imaginary line, the runner has leeway of 3 feet to each side if a tag is going to be put on them. It's not much but they can get around a tag if they stay within 3 feet of where they are about to be tagged. (The basepath, in theory gets re-established every step of the way, until a play is being made on the runner, then it's measure 3 feet either way time). Technically, the runner could zig-zag 10 feet in each direction provided there is no play being made on them to tag them.
First of all, let's cover the force.
It's the same as baseball. With a runner on first, a ground ball is hit to the 1st baseman. There is a force at second. However, if the 1st Baseman chooses to first go over and touch first base, it REMOVES the force play at second, and the runner CAN return to first base. So, if the 1st Baseman touches 1st and throws to second, the shortstop covering has to TAG the runner to get the out. This is the same for all bases including HOME. (bases loaded grounder to third, if the 3B touches third and throws home, the catcher has to tag the runner and the runner can try to go back to third.)
Now, the Basepath.
The basepath is the direct line from where the runner is (at any given moment) to the base they are going to. So, if a batter/runner hits the ball and runs through first base, and overruns it by 50 feet, the 'new' basepath is from 50 feet past first to second base. Drawing an imaginary line, the runner has leeway of 3 feet to each side if a tag is going to be put on them. It's not much but they can get around a tag if they stay within 3 feet of where they are about to be tagged. (The basepath, in theory gets re-established every step of the way, until a play is being made on the runner, then it's measure 3 feet either way time). Technically, the runner could zig-zag 10 feet in each direction provided there is no play being made on them to tag them.
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