Opinions from Experienced Dads needed.

[BoardMember]

I also watched the College World Series. As I recall the #1 pitch that was getting hit over the fence was the screwball.

I don't doubt this for a minute......WHEN THROWN TO A RH HITTER BY A RH PITCHER and visa versa........Especially when thrown by a pitcher who lacks the velocity to make it an effective "knuckle buster"........

However, the pitch has its place in the arsonal, when used correctly......

It is absolutey the most effective pitch against lefty slapper/drag bunter....Drop plays directly into the hands of this type of hitter.........The bat control exibited by a good tapper/slapper renders rise just as ineffective........

Screw is absolutely effective against a long powerful swing.......Veronica Nelson would POUND anything you put outside. She had a "hole" in her swing on the inside corner.

Throwing a screw to a short swing is just bad coaching. As a coach, you should know the swing mechanics of a hitter by the first few pitches......And pitch to the weaknesses of that hitter........Using the arsonal correctly is paramount to creating an effective plan with individual hitters......

And the screw has it's place in that arsonal........

As an aside, I don't teach screw to anyone younger then 16. Infact, it's the last pitch I teach. And I only teach it to pitchers who exibit a velocity that I believe can make it effective, which is over 60mph......

If you as hitter are standing on the plate, and you are squaring everything out, and my pitcher throws 63, you can bet one is coming at your hands at some point in the at bat.........The problem is you won't know when.........

Working the plate includes up/down/IN/out.........If you are afraid to work IN, you are incomplete. The screw gives a pitcher the confidence to work IN.....Because the pitch is starting on the inside corner, vs. starting OFF the inside corner, which is the hardest pitch to get the girls to throw.......

I have my opinion on the effectiveness of peel drop for women. And I believe it correct. There is a reason why most of the best female pitchers in HISTORY didn't/don't throw it. And it ISN'T because the men who taught them didn't know how to teach it. It is the MOST POPULAR drop in mens fastpitch.......It isn't new, except to those who are reletively NEW to fastpitch, or have never played themselves.........

The pitch is a push/wave with an open wrist. It requires strength to throw it correctly WITH any velocity. And without velocity, it's simply a "gravity drop".

All the "hopla" on this board over the peel drop is a hugely over-rated IMO.........It's been around since the anals of time.......

The #1 pitch that was giving hitters fits was the drop. The drop was also very effective in the KFC World Cup.

Perhaps the reason that so many pitchers through screws and curves is because that's what they were taught by their instructors when they were younger. Is it possible that your typical youth FP pitching instructor doesn't know how to teach the mechanics to throw a peel drop or a riseball?

One of the most popular pitching instructors in my area does not know how to throw a peel drop. She's experimented with it and can't throw it. Her students are taught the screw and curve. It seems like every (14u)pitcher in my area is being taught the screw.

I took my daughter out of lessons two years ago because it didn't make sense to me to pay an instructor $45 per hour to teach mediocre mechanics.

We're hoping Bill gets down here to the Southeast one of these days.

 

[Wellphyt]

Any type pitch perfectly thrown on the inside corner at the knees or the outside corner at the knees is going to give most hitters problems.

The reality is that all pitchers miss their spots on occasion and get the ball out over the plate. If I'm a pitcher and I'm going to miss out over the plate I would rather miss with a pitch that changes planes.

 

[CoachFP]

yes, and it goes to show that hitting is not being taught how to adjust. 85% of these pitches were thrown outside.. yet it never even dawned on these hitters to make adjustments. All this sort of behavior does is makes average pitching look great.

Yet in contrast, look how many HR's these college hitters have listed in their stats as they are at bat. It seemed 20+ HR's was the norm, not the exception. How can this be? Possibly because they face pitchers who have "8 pitches" yet master none? Because the "screwball" doesn't screw and gets left over the plate for a $400 bat to hit to the moon?

Sooner or later, these girls will learn how to read a pitcher and the tide will turn COMPLETELY into the hitter's favor.

Bill

The curve ball is the holy grail of female pitching when in fact it is easier to throw a peel drop. The "screwball" is a slower fastball that is thrown inside to a right handed hitter by a right handed pitcher.
Girls don't study pitchers. I was watching Cat Osterman the other night. Every time she needed a strike she threw a low curve on the outside corner to the right handed hitters. Not once did I see one of the Aussies lean in that direction to take one of those to right field. They all took the pitch and looked surprised.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

"Pure" curve balls and "pure" screw balls are not worth the time it takes to develop them. In baseball, the curve or screw ends with a drop at the end of the pitch. If the ball doesn't drop, it is called either a "hanging curve" and also a "home run". In softball, you can't get a curve or screw to drop. So, every pure curve in softball is a "hanging curve".

I would have to respectively disagree with this statement. It is true to the norm but, I teach mine what we call the 'double dip pitch'. Like I said before we throw a lot of 'hybrid' pitches. Using diff off/cross seam grips and snap points. Two weeks ago at indoor practice the BIG high dollar pitching instructor ( we don't use him ) asked my daughter how she was making her curve and screw drop so hard. She showed him the grip and pitched a few more........all he said was wow. Throwing hybrid pitches not only will give diff breaking points in flight, but also diff speeds. Which are great adjustments for the pitcher,using them that 2nd run through the batting lineup. It constantly makes the batters adjust, because the pitches are breaking a little earlier or later...... some even twice.

 

[cyfairslam]

I would have to respectively disagree with this statement. It is true to the norm but, I teach mine what we call the 'double dip pitch'. Like I said before we throw a lot of 'hybrid' pitches. Using diff off/cross seam grips and snap points. Two weeks ago at indoor practice the BIG high dollar pitching instructor ( we don't use him ) asked my daughter how she was making her curve and screw drop so hard. She showed him the grip and pitched a few more........all he said was wow. Throwing hybrid pitches not only will give diff breaking points in flight, but also diff speeds. Which are great adjustments for the pitcher,using them that 2nd run through the batting lineup. It constantly makes the batters adjust, because the pitches are breaking a little earlier or later...... some even twice.

Every pitching forum will have have a discussion about whether to throw a curve ball or not. I believe when curve ball hits the thread there is an automatic response that is part of the forum software that states that the curve and screw are useless pitches and that pitchers should only learn to throw only rise and drop balls. (I also think there is also an automatic response by the software when glove slapping comes up that it help the hitters time the pitch)

I have probably seen 90 percent of the top female pitchers in the world from right behind the backstop. I have not seen many that can throw a drop and a rise with movement (the ones that don't get hit) consistently for a strike. This is probably not the case in the top Men's divisions. Every top (my opinion) female pitcher that I have seen will throw a curve because they can throw that for a strike. Lately, in college, it appears the screw ball has become quite popular. If the pitcher does not get the 6" inside pitch for a strike, they typically struggle.

The biggest transition for most of the top 18U Gold pitchers when they go to college is to figure out what they will throw for a strike. Many live on rise balls or drop balls that end out of the zone in travel ball. When they try to throw them for a strike they flatten out and become ineffective. In college, if you are the big game pitcher, the coaches will scout and figure out what you will throw for a strike and at what part of the plate. If you cannot throw something with movement for a strike the pitcher is typically dead meat. Some all world 18U pitchers never make the transition. In all fairness, there are some that do get by using a change up as their strike pitch.

I would agree that a good drop and rise is perferable. However, the top three USA pitchers all throw fairly flat curve balls (25% plus) and are successful. That is a fact. So when you dads go to your pitching lesson and that old pitching coach expands his chest and tells you that your daughter should only throw drops and rises, ask him who he has produced that can throw good rises and drops consistently for strikes and why are they not on the National team. Telling an unsuspecting Dad that their daughter should only throw rises and drops and that the top pitchers in the world don't do it correctly is how most think they get instant credibility. (If the pitching coach is any good at all, he will tell you that the top pitchers don't pitch the way he teaches and get away with it because they are freaks of nature and there is nothing to learn from them, then ask him why all 6' plus pitcher don't do what they do)

BTW, if you have not done so, watch a college baseball game (top program) sometime and count how many of those hitters hit a good fairly flat curve ball in the zone. I would agree that the college softball hitters don't seem to be able to adust to inside outside pitching and lately with the popularity of the screw ball, cannot not hit an inside pitch in fair territory. Again I would agree that up and down movement is best, but if the college guys don't hit curves well with their aluminum bats, how can you say it is just the girls hitting instruction. I think you have to give a little credit that a properly set up curve is not a bad pitch. IMO, women pitchers actually have an advantage in that they can throw up, down spins to set up their curve spins.

 

[Jojo]

Wow, if my DD had not learned the rise and screw she would not have received the offers she did.
She did not throw a drop. A fastball would have killed her.
In high school she threw 60 (not the fastest around), jumping to 62-67 in college. I would hate to be the pitcher that got a scholarship just on my drop and change then have to start learning new pitches to survive college.
I also hate the way D-1 is regarded as a status symbol. There are some bad D-1 schools out there and some awesome D-2's and D-3's. Finding the right fit of school should be whats important. Do they like big pitchers, tall pitchers, fast pitchers, junk pitchers. Do they want to change you, love you the way you are? If a D-1 is not right for you, don't set yourself up to fail.

My DD pitched in nearly every game of her 4 years in college, if she didn't start and play the whole game, she would usually end up in the next game at some point for damage control. Those pitches were her bread butter, and trust me the other coaches tried and tried to take them away from her in the box, but she could still manipulate them enough to get a call or swing.

I'm sure a lot of college coaches look at speed, but there are many pitchers that throw hard, what makes you better?
There are a lot of coaches out there that also don't know what to look for, but speed is easy to see.
Once my DD had a college she was interested come out and see her a couple of times, they turned her down saying every time they watched her pitch, she was striking out the majority of the batters, since she only threw about 60 she obviously wasn't facing decent competition. Oh and after that I looked at their pitchers, and yeah, they threw hard: ).

 

[Coach JV]

Going back to original post, without reading the entire thread, isn't it
true that once a girl gets to the ripe old age of 16, she delivers breaking balls
differently than at age 12? My DD befriended a D1 pitcher who showed her a
new screwball. When my dd showed her PC, her forbade her from throwing it
until she is older to reduce the probability of injury. This made sense to me

 

[Jojo]

I'm sensing maybe a little misunderstanding in communication.
D-1 pitcher gets scholarship, arrives at school, PC tells her now she must change the way the way she throws the breaking pitches. D-1 pitcher complains to dad, "Gee why did I even bother to learn them this way in the beginning, now it's harder to re-learn, I should have just waited till college to learn these."

There is a local juco coach here that breaks down all his pitchers into his style. Everyone knows it. If he offers you a scholarship and you protest the change, he assures you he won't touch you, you accept, and he then starts to change you.
I wouldn't see you asking, why did I even learn to pitch this way in the beginning, I should have waited till college to learn how to pitch.

I agree with waiting till the age of 12-13 to learn breaking pitches, I don't agree with not learning any besides the drop.

 

[cyfairslam]

Going back to original post, without reading the entire thread, isn't it
true that once a girl gets to the ripe old age of 16, she delivers breaking balls
differently than at age 12? My DD befriended a D1 pitcher who showed her a
new screwball. When my dd showed her PC, her forbade her from throwing it
until she is older to reduce the probability of injury. This made sense to me

Back to the original question of the thread, at 12 years old I would work on the rise and drop spins as recommended by the pitching coach and not work on the curve and screw ball. The rise will most likely not be effective until she gets 2- 4 years older. However, the body awareness she will achieve in the quest for a good rise will serve her well down the line. If she can master the mechanics required for both a good rise and drop she will be in really good company.

The curve and screwball can wait until the later high school years. Working on those pitches too early can promote some bad habits that could be hard to change later. I have seen a number of 14-18 years olds have elbow and other problems throwing an incorrect screw ball. I would disagree with the pitching coach somewhat. If you have a good movement pitch, whatever it is, the good college coaches won't significantly change the way your throw the pitch. My 2 cents

 

[Mark H]

Some good points. Various thoughts. The change can be your down pitch if you lack a drop. Up and down is great but relative to what? The world? The swing plane? The eyes? Seems to me of those three variables, "up and down relative to the world" is the least significant. I agree with CFSlam when he says so many girls don't throw rises and drops in the zone that still move. I view this as a function of three things. What the umpire will call. Hitters with long swings who have to commit early. Prevailing instruction truisms. I'll expand on all that if anyone is interested.