More obstruction

[David Carter]

There you go, that is all there is to it. That base is the forward point to which the runner is protected. The base last touched is the rear point of protection. Anything outside that is fair game.

I think we are saying the same thing but it is not coming out right (or I could just be being dense). I'm not sure what the base last touched means...the "point of protection" is whatever base the ump judges they would have reached without the obstruction, the only liability the runner has is if they pass the base the ump judges they would have reached without the obstruction....?right?

 

[MTR]

I think we are saying the same thing but it is not coming out right (or I could just be being dense). I'm not sure what the base last touched means...the "point of protection" is whatever base the ump judges they would have reached without the obstruction, the only liability the runner has is if they pass the base the ump judges they would have reached without the obstruction....?right?

The last base touched refers to the portion of the rule which states the runner cannot be put out between the two bases where the OBS occurred. My explanation was simply to note the complete protection area. It is from the last base passed (for the legal touch fanatics) to the base to which the runner would have advanced has the OBS not occurred.

The reason the "between the two bases" exist is to protect the runner who is OBS, but in the umpire's judgment would never have reached the next base safely.

 

[Ajaywill]

You are correct. It's really not that difficult. Once obstruction is noted (regardless of where it occurs), the ball remains live and play continues. At the end of all play, the ump simple judges; "What base would that obstructed runner have reached if she had not been obstructed?"

If, DURING the live ball, she was put out PRIOR to reaching the base that the ump judged; she is awarded that base. If she is put out beyond whichever base the ump judged she would have made, had there been no obstruction, the play stands. There is no award.

PLAY; A runner who starts at first, is obstructed leaving first on a double down the right field line. The ump may immediately say to himself, the rule says she must get second, but I know she can easily make third, and maybe home.
The play continues and she tries for home, but gets thrown out at home.

Now, the ump must judge how much the obstruction that occurred when she left first, affected the amount by which she was thrown out at home. If she lost 2 steps leaving first because of the obstruction, and is thrown out by an eyelash at home. Then the ump should award home. If she hadn't lost 2 steps, she would have made it. So that is the base the ump awarded, and she was out PRIOR to the awarded base.

OTOH, if she loses a half-step leaving first, and gets thrown out by 3 steps at home, the out stands. Because, nullifying the obstruction would not have allowed her to make home. The awarded base, due to judgment, was third, and she was not thrown out PRIOR to third. So, the out stands.

Your understanding of the rule is correct, but you are not executing it properly.

You (umpire) make your decision as to where the runner is protected at the time of the obstruction. Don't wait for the play to finish then decide. If you do that, any action that was subsequent to the obstruction (bobbled ball, overthrow, etc.) could come into play and affect the protection.

 

[jbooth]

Your understanding of the rule is correct, but you are not executing it properly.

You (umpire) make your decision as to where the runner is protected at the time of the obstruction. Don't wait for the play to finish then decide. If you do that, any action that was subsequent to the obstruction (bobbled ball, overthrow, etc.) could come into play and affect the protection.

That's right. Everything that happens during the play affects your decision as to where the runner is protected.

NFHS Casebook 8.4.3 SITUATION A: With one out, R1 on second and R2 on first, B4 hits ground ball directly to F1 who throws to F5 for the force on R1 at third. F6 grabs R1 to prevent her from advancing to third.
RULING: The umpire will signal obstruction when it occurs, and then call time at the end of playing action or when the obstructed runner is put out before reaching the base she would have, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction. The umpire will award R1 and any other runners the base or bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction.

In the play above, let's say the throw to F5 was wild and allowed R1 to try for home. If she gets thrown out at home on a close play, after being grabbed heading to third, you would award her home. Because, if she had not been obstructed, that's the base she would have made on the play. The wild throw was part of the play. At the end of all play, you award the base she would have reached, had she not been obstructed.

It's clear in the rule and in every case book situation. You wait until the end of the play and then award the bases you think the obstructed runner would have made, had there been no obstruction. It's very simple. You let the play stand if the runner reached or passed, the base you judged, or you award a base, if not.

 

[Ajaywill]

I will try this one more time....

Here is the play that the obstruction had a direct effect on:

F1 who throws to F5 for the force on R1 at third.

This is the subsequent play that allowed the runner to attempt to try for home:

the throw to F5 was wild and allowed R1 to try for home.

Had the wild throw not happened, the runner would not have tried to advance. The obstruction ONLY affected her advance to third base, that would be the base she is protected to. You make that determination at the time you see the obstruction, BEFORE the wild throw happened. The wild throw is a seperate play. If the runner chooses to advance past third base, she is no longer protected due to the obstruction. She is on her own and if put out, the out stands.

 

[jbooth]

I will try this one more time....

Had the wild throw not happened, the runner would not have tried to advance. The obstruction ONLY affected her advance to third base, that would be the base she is protected to. You make that determination at the time you see the obstruction, BEFORE the wild throw happened. The wild throw is a seperate play. If the runner chooses to advance past third base, she is no longer protected due to the obstruction. She is on her own and if put out, the out stands.

Maybe, maybe not. The English is quite clear. At the end of all play, you award the bases they would have reached had they not been obstructed. You're right, several separate plays may occur after the obstruction, but you still wait until all play has ceased before you make your ruling.

You have to judge what happened during the entire action. You are correct that if she stopped at third, thinking she had no chance for home, but then subsequently went after seeing the overthrow, and got out, the out would stand. But, there are situations where she could be awarded home.

In the original play; she would get third because she cannot be out between the bases. The force out at third is nullified. Time is called when she is put out and she gets third.

If the throw to third got past F5 and the runner stopped at third initially, and then decided to go home and got thrown out, you probably would allow the out to stand because she stopped and then restarted on her own, the obstruction didn't cause the out.

However, let's say she sees the throw go over F5's head while she is running full speed toward third after the obstruction, and without hesitating runs around third and to home, where she is out by a half step. In that situation, the obstruction is what kept her from making home safely, so you award it. She wasn't put out between the bases, and she didn't stop and then go. You don't take away her ability to advance on the play just because she was obstructed. If she hadn't been obstructed the bad throw would have allowed her to score. You give her home.

Another play; after the obstruction she heads to third, and stops because F7 was backing up and retrieved the overthrow. F7 throws to second because the runner from first took a big turn. The obstructed runner takes off for home on the throw to second. She is then thrown out by F4. The out stands because the obstruction didn't cause her to be out.

You wait until all play is over and award the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. You don't stop them at the first base they were heading to while being obstructed. They can advance beyond that base and be protected, if you judge that they could have gone beyond that base on the play and been safe.

Here is an explanation from the MLB umpire manual. The fundamental principle is the same in Softball, however. This may explain the "wait and then decide" principle of the rule in both codes better than I just did;

Play: Batter-runner hits a fair ball down the right field line and is obstructed in rounding first
base. At the moment the obstruction occurs, the right fielder has not yet fielded the ball, and it
appears at that moment that the batter-runner will end up with a stand-up double. However, as
play proceeds, the ball gets by the right fielder, and the batter-runner continues on to third. The
batter-runner is then thrown out at third base on a very close play.
Ruling: Because it is permissible for the umpire to consider the position of the runner, ball, and
fielder at the moment the obstruction occurs, the umpire may initially plan on "protecting" the
batter-runner as far as second base. However, as play continued, it became apparent that had the batter-runner not been obstructed in rounding first base, he would have reached third safely.
Therefore, the moment the batter-runner is tagged out at third base, "Time" is called and the
batter-runner is awarded third on the obstruction. The decision is made on the principle that the
umpire, in making awards on this type of obstruction, shall allow play to continue until no
further action is possible and then shall make awards — if any — that will nullify the
obstruction.
In this example if the umpire felt that the obstruction had no bearing on the fact that the batter-runner was thrown out at third, the out would stand.

You award bases, OR NOT, after all play, based upon what happened during all play.

 

[MTR]

Maybe, maybe not. The English is quite clear. At the end of all play, you award the bases they would have reached had they not been obstructed. You're right, several separate plays may occur after the obstruction, but you still wait until all play has ceased before you make your ruling.

You have to judge what happened during the entire action. You are correct that if she stopped at third, thinking she had no chance for home, but then subsequently went after seeing the overthrow, and got out, the out would stand. But, there are situations where she could be awarded home.

In the original play; she would get third because she cannot be out between the bases. The force out at third is nullified. Time is called when she is put out and she gets third.

If the throw to third got past F5 and the runner stopped at third initially, and then decided to go home and got thrown out, you probably would allow the out to stand because she stopped and then restarted on her own, the obstruction didn't cause the out.

However, let's say she sees the throw go over F5's head while she is running full speed toward third after the obstruction, and without hesitating runs around third and to home, where she is out by a half step. In that situation, the obstruction is what kept her from making home safely, so you award it. She wasn't put out between the bases, and she didn't stop and then go. You don't take away her ability to advance on the play just because she was obstructed. If she hadn't been obstructed the bad throw would have allowed her to score. You give her home.

Another play; after the obstruction she heads to third, and stops because F7 was backing up and retrieved the overthrow. F7 throws to second because the runner from first took a big turn. The obstructed runner takes off for home on the throw to second. She is then thrown out by F4. The out stands because the obstruction didn't cause her to be out.

You wait until all play is over and award the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. You don't stop them at the first base they were heading to while being obstructed. They can advance beyond that base and be protected, if you judge that they could have gone beyond that base on the play and been safe.

Here is an explanation from the MLB umpire manual. The fundamental principle is the same in Softball, however. This may explain the "wait and then decide" principle of the rule in both codes better than I just did;

Play: Batter-runner hits a fair ball down the right field line and is obstructed in rounding first
base. At the moment the obstruction occurs, the right fielder has not yet fielded the ball, and it
appears at that moment that the batter-runner will end up with a stand-up double. However, as
play proceeds, the ball gets by the right fielder, and the batter-runner continues on to third. The
batter-runner is then thrown out at third base on a very close play.
Ruling: Because it is permissible for the umpire to consider the position of the runner, ball, and
fielder at the moment the obstruction occurs, the umpire may initially plan on "protecting" the
batter-runner as far as second base. However, as play continued, it became apparent that had the batter-runner not been obstructed in rounding first base, he would have reached third safely.
Therefore, the moment the batter-runner is tagged out at third base, "Time" is called and the
batter-runner is awarded third on the obstruction. The decision is made on the principle that the
umpire, in making awards on this type of obstruction, shall allow play to continue until no
further action is possible and then shall make awards — if any — that will nullify the
obstruction.
In this example if the umpire felt that the obstruction had no bearing on the fact that the batter-runner was thrown out at third, the out would stand.

You award bases, OR NOT, after all play, based upon what happened during all play.

This isn't baseball and why do you insist on continually telling people who have been attending national clinics for years, attend and conduct/teach at the regional, state and local level, not to mention the schools how wrong we are?

Ajaywill gave a perfect interpretation of the scenarios covered.

 

[jbooth]

This isn't baseball and why do you insist on continually telling people who have been attending national clinics for years, attend and conduct/teach at the regional, state and local level, not to mention the schools how wrong we are?

Ajaywill gave a perfect interpretation of the scenarios covered.

OK, so tell me what you believe is the proper way to rule in softball on this example play from the MLB manual;

Play: Batter-runner hits a fair ball down the right field line and is obstructed in rounding first base.
At the moment the obstruction occurs, the right fielder has not yet fielded the ball, and it
appears at that moment that the batter-runner will end up with a stand-up double. However, as
play proceeds, the ball gets by the right fielder, and the batter-runner continues on to third. The
batter-runner is then thrown out at third base on a very close play.

 

[jbooth]

This isn't baseball and why do you insist on continually telling people who have been attending national clinics for years, attend and conduct/teach at the regional, state and local level, not to mention the schools how wrong we are?

Ajaywill gave a perfect interpretation of the scenarios covered.

Tell me which of the rulings or statements that I made below are incorrect and why, please.

In the original play; she would get third because she cannot be out between the bases. The force out at third is nullified. Time is called when she is put out, and she gets third.

If the throw to third got past F5 and the runner stopped at third initially, and then decided to go home and got thrown out, you probably would allow the out to stand because she stopped and then restarted on her own, the obstruction didn't cause the out.

However, let's say she sees the throw go over F5's head while she is running full speed toward third after the obstruction, and without hesitating runs around third and to home, where she is out by a half step. In that situation, the obstruction is what kept her from making home safely, so you award it. She wasn't put out between the bases, and she didn't stop and then go. You don't take away her ability to advance on the play just because she was obstructed. If she hadn't been obstructed the bad throw would have allowed her to score. You give her home.

Another play; after the obstruction she heads to third, and stops because F7 was backing up and retrieved the overthrow. F7 throws to second because the runner from first took a big turn. The obstructed runner takes off for home on the throw to second. She is then thrown out by F4. The out stands because the obstruction didn't cause her to be out.

You wait until all play is over and award the bases they would have reached had there been no obstruction. You don't stop them at the first base they were heading to while being obstructed. They can advance beyond that base and be protected, if you judge that they could have gone beyond that base on the play and been safe, had they not been obstructed.

 

[Ajaywill]

I've covered the proper ruling and interpretation for SOFTBALL about three times now.

You either don't or refuse to get it.

I'm done beating my head against the wall.