Deception rule

[fastpitch]

Our girls are taught to run on strike 3 to 1B no matter what. Dropped or not dropped. Even if less than 2 outs and a runner on 1B. Our head coach likes to just keep the girls hustling and sprinting.

At younger ages it draws an errant throw sometimes and at older age groups not at all. By then those catchers know when to throw and when not to throw. We are a 14U team playing up in an 18U showcase format tournament this weekend using modified ASA rules; bat up to 11 and courtesy runners (last batted out or sub)for pitcher and catcher. Our girls sprint to 1B on a strike 3 almost as a punishment and also to get in the habit of being ready to run down the line on a dropped third strike. The ump warned my coach that this was deception and he could call both the batter and the base runner out for "deception" if a runner was on 1B and there were less than two outs.

Has anyone heard of this rule?

He also used an example of deception if the fielder fakes like a throw is coming in and the base runner slides (ie runner going to 2b on a hit to RF, SS pretends to have a play and the runner slides but there is no throw) that he could have the player ejected for deception. I know some LL organizations have some kind of rule for that in place. I didn't think there was a rule for that in ASA.

Is there a rule for either case?

 

[Greenmonsters]

Our girls are taught to run on strike 3 to 1B no matter what. Dropped or not dropped. Even if less than 2 outs and a runner on 1B. Our head coach likes to just keep the girls hustling and sprinting.

At younger ages it draws an errant throw sometimes and at older age groups not at all. By then those catchers know when to throw and when not to throw. We are a 14U team playing up in an 18U showcase format tournament this weekend using modified ASA rules; bat up to 11 and courtesy runners (last batted out or sub)for pitcher and catcher. Our girls sprint to 1B on a strike 3 almost as a punishment and also to get in the habit of being ready to run down the line on a dropped third strike. The ump warned my coach that this was deception and he could call both the batter and the base runner out for "deception" if a runner was on 1B and there were less than two outs.

Has anyone heard of this rule?

He also used an example of deception if the fielder fakes like a throw is coming in and the base runner slides (ie runner going to 2b on a hit to RF, SS pretends to have a play and the runner slides but there is no throw) that he could have the player ejected for deception. I know some LL organizations have some kind of rule for that in place. I didn't think there was a rule for that in ASA.

Is there a rule for either case?

Hustle and effort are priorities in my book, but IMO, your coach either: 1) doesn't think the players are smart enough to comprehend the situation and rules; or, 2) is too lazy to bother to teach them; or 3) has no class and also calls "I got it" on pop flies while he's coaching third base.

Remember, its a showcase and from a player's standpoint, I can't think of a better way to demonstrate a general lack of knowledge about the game and embarass themself. Of course, not running on a legitimate dropped third strike doesn't look good either.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Hustle and effort are priorities in my book, but IMO, your coach either: 1) doesn't think the players are smart enough to comprehend the situation and rules; or, 2) is too lazy to bother to teach them; or 3) has no class and also calls "I got it" on pop flies while he's coaching third base.

Remember, its a showcase and from a player's standpoint, I can't think of a better way to demonstrate a general lack of knowledge about the game and embarass themself. Of course, not running on a legitimate dropped third strike doesn't look good either.

PS I am trusting that MTR, Comp, Bretman et al will give you good advice re the ASA rule set

 

[fastpitch]

Hustle and effort are priorities in my book, but IMO, your coach either: 1) doesn't think the players are smart enough to comprehend the situation and rules; or, 2) is too lazy to bother to teach them; or 3) has no class and also calls "I got it" on pop flies while he's coaching third base.

Remember, its a showcase and from a player's standpoint, I can't think of a better way to demonstrate a general lack of knowledge about the game and embarass themself. Of course, not running on a legitimate dropped third strike doesn't look good either.

I don't really think it was taught to deceive when she instructed them to do this. At the age group and level we are at no one falls for that old 10u trick. I think its just to get the hustle ingrained in them and have them sprint in case it gets dropped without looking. But I don't know. If the overwhelming thought is that its bush league maybe I can bring it up to her if there is a proper reasoning behind it. We played a team from AZ this past summer and saw them do it even with less than two outs and a runner on 1st. To me it just looked like hustle. They were probably the best team we ever played.

And the truth is... our players aren't that softball smart... yet.

 

[FPump]

The ump warned my coach that this was deception and he could call both the batter and the base runner out for "deception" if a runner was on 1B and there were less than two outs.

Has anyone heard of this rule?

He also used an example of deception if the fielder fakes like a throw is coming in and the base runner slides (ie runner going to 2b on a hit to RF, SS pretends to have a play and the runner slides but there is no throw) that he could have the player ejected for deception. I know some LL organizations have some kind of rule for that in place. I didn't think there was a rule for that in ASA.

Is there a rule for either case?

1) There is no Deception rule in the ASA rule book, or for that matter in the rule books of any of the other sanctions that I work.

2) That's a Fake Tag (ASA Rule 1 and R/S #19). And yes, while the description in the book reads:
"A fake tag occurs when a fielder without the ball deceives the runner by impeding their progress; for example, causing a runner to slide, slow down or stop running...."this is by rule Obstruction (8.5.B).

Can a Fake Tag by rule result in an ejection? If there are continued fake tags, yes or in the case of a flagrant act (where the sliding player gets hurt) the offending player can be ejected without warning.

 

[JAD]

He also used an example of deception if the fielder fakes like a throw is coming in and the base runner slides (ie runner going to 2b on a hit to RF, SS pretends to have a play and the runner slides but there is no throw) that he could have the player ejected for deception. I know some LL organizations have some kind of rule for that in place. I didn't think there was a rule for that in ASA.

I am not an expert on ASA rules, but I am pretty sure 'phantom tags' are not allowed. Causing a baserunner to slide unnecssarily could cause an injury and IMHO is bad sportsmanship.

 

[Comp]

As already state, no such thing as a "deception rule". The defense is responsible for knowing the situation and that no throw is required if there are less than 2 outs and 1st is occupied. That being said, if the batter does run on a dropped third strike and interferes with a legitimate play on a runner at 1st, (say a pick off attempt of the runner going back to 1st) then you have a retired batter interfering with a play and the runner closest to home would be called out.

 

[fastpitch]

Thanks. This makes perfect sense not to run when base is occupied with less than 2 outs. Maybe I can have coach have the runners sprint into dugout in that scenario.

As already state, no such thing as a "deception rule". The defense is responsible for knowing the situation and that no throw is required if there are less than 2 outs and 1st is occupied. That being said, if the batter does run on a dropped third strike and interferes with a legitimate play on a runner at 1st, (say a pick off attempt of the runner going back to 1st) then you have a retired batter interfering with a play and the runner closest to home would be called out.

 

[MTR]

Speaking ASA,

A retired batter simply running to 1B on what could be confused with a U3K is not, by rule, INT. However, if there is any reason the umpire does believe this was done for the purpose of drawing a throw, the umpire could (note could, not should) rule INT by a retired runner. Result would be the same as if INT on a runner @ 1B, runner closest to home i ruled out. Please note, I'm referring to a "no doubt" situation for the umpire, not a guess at what was occurring.

 

[fastpitch]

Would the catcher have to make a throw that hits the Batter runner to be ruled int? Or can it be just called INT if the umpire believes it is being done to draw the bad throw?

Speaking ASA,

A retired batter simply running to 1B on what could be confused with a U3K is not, by rule, INT. However, if there is any reason the umpire does believe this was done for the purpose of drawing a throw, the umpire could (note could, not should) rule INT by a retired runner. Result would be the same as if INT on a runner @ 1B, runner closest to home i ruled out. Please note, I'm referring to a "no doubt" situation for the umpire, not a guess at what was occurring.