D1 - Do they always leave base early?

[FPMark]

Thanks druer, great advice. I like the way the coach talks (plants seeds) with the ump.

I coached first the entire time I was coaching, and I was always working with the girls to get the earliest lead possible. But when our fast runners left perfectly, read early, I noticed that they would have to stop before the batter hit the ball or risk getting too far, and maybe picked off. Thats why I started having them leave a little later, (after release) if not stealing, so they didn't have to stop and restart on a hit ball. You're right about the umps watching the fast runners more closely, so leaving 'late' tends to make them quit focusing on them so much. When the steal sign is given, it's automatic to go what you called 2 or 3 hrs early. Fun to hear the other coach yell "she's leaving early!" and have the ump tell him "no she's not, Ive been watching." Of coarse, once at second, it's back to leaving late.

You ever notice girls having to stop and restart on hit balls? or is that normal and not a problem?

 

[Jeff_H]

A good base runner will test the umpires to see what they give them. It sounds like the umpires were quite generous and the runner was taking advantage of it. It's part of the game. See where the line is and try and push it further to your advantage. Nothing wrong with it at all.

I find this whole thread interesting.


Why are they not demonized and railed against as "CHEATERS" like the pitchers? Slappers are out of the box, the rabbits leave early and pitchers leap. They are all trying to gain an advantage, but only the pitcher is criticized and called out and labeled as a cheater. You see the posts " I want my daughter to learn and play by the rules, those pitchers leaping are cheaters". But then you see the one above, " It's part of the game, nothing wrong with it".

So which is it, you can't have it both ways? Are they all cheaters? or is it part of the game?

Just playing devil's advocate

 

[Lozza]

I got this concept from the head coach of a school that will remain nameless. If a player got caught, he would call time and speak with the umpire. Not challenge the call but would say "Hey Mike I just wanted to let you know that we work on our timing with video for over an hour each week. (Totally true.) I would be really surprised that they left earlier than they were supposed to. (Also totally true he told them 3 hours early and thats what they do.) You know I trust your judgement but I know it must be awfully difficult to watch the pitcher and distinquish my runners leg and body being in motion from her foot that remains on the base. You sure have a tough job buddy." Then he just strolls back to third base, and dials it down 1 notch next time. Since everything he says, at least the way he words it is 100% true he comes across as believable. He isn't challenging the call at all, he's planting the seeds of doubt so that the next call isn't made.

I know many an umpire who would then be looking for early leavers, just to piss the coach off.

As regards to the cheating bit, a girl who has spent hundreds of hours learning one motion, cannot simply change it to avoid the leaping and therefore being called illegeal. If she starts getting called illegal it can ruin her. If she's leaving early, than it's just adjusting by a second. Not as big a deal to change.

 

[FPump]

I was watching on TV the Iowa v. Purdue softball game this weekend and was shocked about how early the baserunners leave the base before the release of the pitched ball. For example, in the 3rd inning, the Purdue baserunner (#15) on 2B, was getting a full step or step and a half off the bag before the pitcher released the ball. She did it over and over again since the batter kept fouling the pitches off. It was so obvious from the naked eye that she was leaving early and neither the plate ump, field ump, or commentators for that matter made any mention of it all game. I rewinded the lead-offs with DVR and on every pitch the baserunner was illegally leaving early. It wasn't even close.

Curious if D1 umps are instructed not to call the runner out to make the game more offensive driven? I know in 10U, that baserunner would have been called out everytime with two Blues working the game.

JMHO...
I don't think that an experienced 3 umpire Big 10 crew is going to miss that many runners leaving early in a game. Also, I think it's probably safe to assume that umpires working in the Big 10 have not been given directive to ignore making that call by their conference coordinator.
I watched the highlights of that game on the Big 10 Network, and while I didn't have the benefit of viewing the entire game as you did, I was able to slow down and stop two plays with Iowa runners on base (3rd and 7th innings) and came away with two observations...(1) excellent position by the base umpires to observe if the runners were leaving early and (2) both runners were legal in their release from the base. It took a bit to capture the frame that showed both the pitcher's release and the runner at the same time, but it showed that they were both legal. The Iowa runner in the 3rd (#6) got picked off diving back to 1st.
The NCAA interpretation is..."When the pitcher's arm is in line with her body (hand at the hip), the ball is considered to be released. Any benefit of the doubt is given to the runner."
I have yet to see a communication this season from the NCAA SUP that has directed us to ignore runners leaving before the pitch is released. To the contrary, we have been reminded of our responsibility on this call on a regular basis.

 

[ElmoBlatch]

I find this whole thread interesting.


Why are they not demonized and railed against as "CHEATERS" like the pitchers? Slappers are out of the box, the rabbits leave early and pitchers leap. They are all trying to gain an advantage, but only the pitcher is criticized and called out and labeled as a cheater. You see the posts " I want my daughter to learn and play by the rules, those pitchers leaping are cheaters". But then you see the one above, " It's part of the game, nothing wrong with it".

So which is it, you can't have it both ways? Are they all cheaters? or is it part of the game?

Just playing devil's advocate

This is an interesting point, and I see what you're saying. However, I think there's a difference. With base stealing, you push the limit to give your team a competitive advantage. If the ump calls you out, you make a simple adjustment and don't leave as early next time.

With pitching, there are many hours put in to practicing style and mechanics. If it is illegal, it is much tougher to adjust on the fly and that can greatly change the pitcher's effectiveness. Therefore, it seems to make more sense to teach a pitcher to pitch legally so they do not get called for illegal pitches over and over when they can't adjust mid-game.

 

[HollowMan]

If baserunners were as blatantly illegal as some pitchers I see, and yet the umpires weren't calling it, there would be coaches getting ejected all over the place. Get 10 feet off the base before the ball is released and you'll be called out every time. Crow hop on every pitch, and pitch from 2 feet closer than a legal pitcher, and there's a good chance you'll never be called. If they were actually being called for illegal pitches, they'd have to change, and then no one would be running around calling them cheaters.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

JMHO...
I don't think that an experienced 3 umpire Big 10 crew is going to miss that many runners leaving early in a game. Also, I think it's probably safe to assume that umpires working in the Big 10 have not been given directive to ignore making that call by their conference coordinator.
I watched the highlights of that game on the Big 10 Network, and while I didn't have the benefit of viewing the entire game as you did, I was able to slow down and stop two plays with Iowa runners on base (3rd and 7th innings) and came away with two observations...(1) excellent position by the base umpires to observe if the runners were leaving early and (2) both runners were legal in their release from the base. It took a bit to capture the frame that showed both the pitcher's release and the runner at the same time, but it showed that they were both legal. The Iowa runner in the 3rd (#6) got picked off diving back to 1st.
The NCAA interpretation is..."When the pitcher's arm is in line with her body (hand at the hip), the ball is considered to be released. Any benefit of the doubt is given to the runner."
I have yet to see a communication this season from the NCAA SUP that has directed us to ignore runners leaving before the pitch is released. To the contrary, we have been reminded of our responsibility on this call on a regular basis.

FPump - appreciate your comments. To add clarification, the Purdue baserunner was Andie Varsho #15 (freshman) and the particular series I was referring to was in the 3rd inning when she had just stolen 2B and the next batter was fouling several pitches off so we got to see her lead-off several times from the centerfield camera angle. It's my understanding that she is one of the fastest players on the team and is known for base stealing. Probably the reason you didn't see the play on the highlights was that no runs were scored in that particular inning.

As someone suggested, maybe the players that are known for base stealing get a "pass" or the "benefit of the doubt" when leading off. I'm sure the Big Ten umps do a great job, just surprised that the home plate umpire who can see the runner at 2B lead-off directly in front of him did not notice the baserunner leading off early every pitch? Don't know if someone has some internet video of that inning that they can post?

It will be interesting to watch #15 the rest of the season and see if she continues to take these big, illegal lead-offs.

Jeff H - you do bring up a good point about what softball rules coaches and players feel are acceptable to break and which one's are not. In general, I think you play by the rules that are established by the organization that you play under and try your best to be in compliance. IMO, it should not matter if other team's "bend the rules", your team should maintain the integrity of the game at all times and play by the rules. I also think that umpires need to be consistent in enforcing the rules every game and throughout the whole season.

 

[Jeff_H]

If baserunners were as blatantly illegal as some pitchers I see, and yet the umpires weren't calling it, there would be coaches getting ejected all over the place. Get 10 feet off the base before the ball is released and you'll be called out every time. Crow hop on every pitch, and pitch from 2 feet closer than a legal pitcher, and there's a good chance you'll never be called. If they were actually being called for illegal pitches, they'd have to change, and then no one would be running around calling them cheaters.

Brittany Rodgers from Alabama made a living leaving early. At the '09 WCWS she was called out 3 times for leaving early. Blue missed her leaving early more times then when she was called out, one of the occasions she wasn't stealing, just and explosive jump off of the base. Several others have been called out multiple times for leaving early, are they habitual cheaters?

Hollowman: They question wasn't that the pitchers can't fix their problem, but why are the others not trashed as cheaters? Your comment reminds me of a couple of years ago me and my 18u daughter stopped by a field to watch a 14u game of one of co-workers kids. The opposing fans were just going nuts about his pitcher crow-hopping, she was leaping. This went on for several innings, they just could not hit her hard, she wasn't overpowering just killing them with off-speed stuff. The next week, on a local SB board, one of the parents of the nutty fanbase advertised his daughters old bat that she had outgrown. His add was for a "Rolled" Demarini Phoenix.

 

[FPump]

SoCalDad,
I'll search the Big 10 Network on-line to see if I can find some video of Purdue that shows the freshman Varsho that you mentioned on base. If I do, I'll make sure to share my thoughts with you.
Regarding your comment on being "surprised that the home plate umpire who can see the runner at 2B lead-off directly in front of him and did notice the baserunner leading off every pitch?"From a mechanics standpoint the call is the responsibility of the base umpire. But beyond that, while from the view of someone watching the game (either in person or on a broadcast or video) it appears that the PU can see that runner at 2B so clearly, it's not the reality.
The PU is engrossed it getting ready to call the next pitch, his focus and concentration is totally on that task. He's watching the pitcher's hands and stride foot for legality, he's locked into the strike zone to call the pitch (which is his most important responsibility) accurately and consistently. All of this is happening in a matter of seconds and the ball is coming in fast and with movement.

 

[druer]

You ever notice girls having to stop and restart on hit balls? or is that normal and not a problem?

I work a lot teaching girls how to dive back to first so that they don't have to worry about getting back for a snap throw.

A lot of girls have issues because they explode off the base looking at second base instead of watching the ball, out of fear of running into the tree/brick wall in the base line, then plant and try to find the ball if it isnt hit, and that makes them vulnerable. I teach them to watch the ball the entire way out of pitchers hand. They should be able to recognize the change up (a lot easier than the batter can) and if they see it they automatically go. They are able to recognize contact immediately, and run as appropriate. If they see it caught, they plant and get back.