Curveball Twist and Turn? Corkscrew Curve video

[sprtfan]

Teaching the "Corkscrew Curve" - YouTube

I saw this video and thought the guy in it looked like Boardmember? If that is the case, I'd assume it would be worth paying attention too. After watching I was confused though and have heard turn the door knob in reference to throwing a screwball. The release off the hand appears to be similar to what I'd expect from a screwball also so I assuming I missing something. He mentioned closing some at release and not releasing to soon. Would that change the angle of the hand enough that the spin would be angled down and away from a right handed batter if thrown by a right handed pitcher?

 

[Hillhouse]

I'm 99% sure that is John (Boardmember).

 

[fanboi22]

https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/curve-ball-doesnt-curve.33197/post-461454

 

[sluggers]

Oh boy...I'll try this one more time.

If a ball is thrown with perfect corkscrew (AKA bullet spin) where the direction of motion is perfectly aligned with the axis of rotation of the ball, the ball will go throw straight.

*HOWEVER*, suppose you throw a ball with perfect corkscrew pin, but the direction of motion is *NOT* perfectly aligned with the ball's axis of rotation. If that occurs, then as the ball spins, one side of the ball has more seams interacting with the air than the other, causing the ball to move.

This type of ball motion is caused by laminar flow over the ball, not the Magnus effect.

Boardmember is using the same physics as Garcia uses to throw her riseball.



From a pitching perspective, the challenge is to consistently getting the correct angle to make the pitch predictable.

In the Arizona v. Washington game last night, Lopez threw a riseball using laminar flow. She didn't get the angle right, and it was a high fastball, which ended up over the left field fence.

Here is a full description of the physics behind the ball movement:

Laminar Express: Using Baseball Science to Enhance Two-Seam Fastballs

A "laminar express" pitch is a two-seam fastball whose term was coined by Trevor Bauer years ago when he developed a pitch that had dramatically more

www.drivelinebaseball.com

 

[fanboi22]

Oh boy...I'll try this one more time.

If a ball is thrown with perfect corkscrew (AKA bullet spin) where the direction of motion is perfectly aligned with the axis of rotation of the ball, the ball will go throw straight.

*HOWEVER*, suppose you throw a ball with perfect corkscrew pin, but the direction of motion is *NOT* perfectly aligned with the ball's axis of rotation. If that occurs, then as the ball spins, one side of the ball has more seams interacting with the air than the other, causing the ball to move.

This type of ball motion is caused by laminar flow over the ball, not the Magnus effect.

Boardmember is using the same physics as Garcia uses to throw her riseball.



From a pitching perspective, the challenge is to consistently getting the correct angle to make the pitch predictable.

In the Arizona v. Washington game last night, Lopez threw a riseball using laminar flow. She didn't get the angle right, and it was a high fastball, which ended up over the left field fence.

Here is a full description of the physics behind the ball movement:

Laminar Express: Using Baseball Science to Enhance Two-Seam Fastballs

A "laminar express" pitch is a two-seam fastball whose term was coined by Trevor Bauer years ago when he developed a pitch that had dramatically more

www.drivelinebaseball.com

So correct me if i am wrong @sluggers , if i understood the article, this would be the reason why my DD's 2 seam 'fastball' which has a 7-1 forward spin (from pitchers perspective) with clockwise (from top) yaw and the inner seam farther out front hitting early laminar separation, would break to the right because the later laminar separation on the right side seam is causing turbulence and the ball to 'pull' to the right, correct?

When she gets the right spin, it is an awesome pitch to see move, which essentially would be her 'screwball'.... going down and in on a right hand hitter.

In theory then, if you can throw a 2 seamer with 5-11 forward spin (from pitcher perspective) with counterclockwise (from above) yaw you could get a 'curveball' resulting pitch cutting down and out to a right hand hitter?

This would make sense on the 'Crise' pitch where the spin isn't perfectly 12-6 backwards but more 11-5 backwards (from pitcher perspective) with some counter clock yaw and 'pulls' the pitch to the left because the leftward seam is the trailing seam.

Hopefully i am thinking of this correctly, or you will crush my hopes and dreams...hahahaha

 

[Hillhouse]

Wow this has become overcomplicated, and I'm not even sure what's being discussed anymore. Lets see if we can fix this:

Bullet spin, no matter what pitch is being attempted is bad.

The ball needs to spin in the direction of it's desired movement, which is why there is no such thing as a screwball. Stepping left and throwing around your hips to the right is not movement, just as a slowpitch pitcher is not throwing a riseball when he throws the ball up high.

 

[fanboi22]

Wow this has become overcomplicated, and I'm not even sure what's being discussed anymore. Lets see if we can fix this:

Bullet spin, no matter what pitch is being attempted is bad.

The ball needs to spin in the direction of it's desired movement, which is why there is no such thing as a screwball. Stepping left and throwing around your hips to the right is not movement, just as a slowpitch pitcher is not throwing a riseball when he throws the ball up high.

Not overcomplicated, just trying to understand spin. I am not sure you watched the laminar express video which shows a two seam pitch with a baseball pitcher throwing a 2 seam fastball with the spin direction towards the left and the pitch moves to the right. The spin did not match the location of where the pitch went.

If you watch the video let me know if it matches what you say spin and direction should be.

 

[Hillhouse]

Not overcomplicated, just trying to understand spin. I am not sure you watched the laminar express video which shows a two seam pitch with a baseball pitcher throwing a 2 seam fastball with the spin direction towards the left and the pitch moves to the right. The spin did not match the location of where the pitch went.

If you watch the video let me know if it matches what you say spin and direction should be.

I just meant all those terminologies, scientific terms.

2 seams get the run in affect because the index finger is stronger than the middle finger and the ball comes off that last due to the strength/pressure that is applied without even trying. We automatically squeeze harder with index fingers than we do middle fingers. So, that's why the ball leaves that finger last, despite the middle finger being longer.

 

[fanboi22]

I just meant all those terminologies, scientific terms.

2 seams get the run in affect because the index finger is stronger than the middle finger and the ball comes off that last due to the strength/pressure that is applied without even trying. We automatically squeeze harder with index fingers than we do middle fingers. So, that's why the ball leaves that finger last, despite the middle finger being longer.

Yeah the terminology used in the hitting forum is worse, lol.

Based on your comment above, you are saying the 'run in affect' is because the index finger is stronger.... are you saying then this means that the spin is also then going 'in' on a right hand hitter from a right hand pitcher?

 

[sluggers]

So correct me if i am wrong @sluggers , if i understood the article, this would be the reason why my DD's 2 seam 'fastball' which has a 7-1 forward spin (from pitchers perspective) with clockwise (from top) yaw and the inner seam farther out front hitting early laminar separation, would break to the right because the later laminar separation on the right side seam is causing turbulence and the ball to 'pull' to the right, correct?

When she gets the right spin, it is an awesome pitch to see move, which essentially would be her 'screwball'.... going down and in on a right hand hitter.

In theory then, if you can throw a 2 seamer with 5-11 forward spin (from pitcher perspective) with counterclockwise (from above) yaw you could get a 'curveball' resulting pitch cutting down and out to a right hand hitter?

This would make sense on the 'Crise' pitch where the spin isn't perfectly 12-6 backwards but more 11-5 backwards (from pitcher perspective) with some counter clock yaw and 'pulls' the pitch to the left because the leftward seam is the trailing seam.

Hopefully i am thinking of this correctly, or you will crush my hopes and dreams...hahahaha

Your first part is correct about the screwball. The second part about the crise is wrong.

There are two different ways to make the ball move. The laminar flow method, which is used in MLB's 2 seamer fastball, slider and knuckleball. Laminar flow movement is caused by the asymmetry of the seams in the direction of the ball movement.

For a screwball, the ball is thrown with bullet spin, but the axis of rotation is slightly different from the direction of the pitch. Therefore, the seams are asymmetrical when viewed from the point of view of the batter, which causes the ball to move.

The second method is the Magnus effect. The Magnus effect is seen in the softball drop ball and the MLB curve ball (which, remember, is actually a drop ball). The Magnus effect occurs due to the spinning of the ball. If the ball spins 12-6 in direction of movement, the ball drops. If the balls spins 3 to 9, the ball curves. If the ball spins 6-12, the ball rises (yes, I know the ball doesn't really rise, it just falls less).

For the crise, the axis of rotation is not true 6-12, so the Magnus effect causes the ball to rise some and curve a little.

Similarly, a drop curve is a poorly thrown drop ball, so the spin is not true 12-6, causing the ball to drop some and curve a little.