Lost this on appeal yesterday. My #2 batter was in the RH batter box bunting (batters box closest to 3rd). She lays down the bunt and it hits the plate and bounces straight up. My batter was starting her run down towards first and her left foot was still in the box and right foot in the air when the ball hits her. PU calls her out stating that she was OVER home plate and in fair territory when the ball hit her. I pointed out that she was not out of the box and the the ball should be considered a foul ball. I am convinced I am correct but would like to have any of the umps on this board point out if I am misunderstanding or misinterpreting a rule.
Ball hitting batter in box
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Bad call. Technically she was in the batter's box until 1 foot touches the ground outside the box. Should of been called a foul ball.
One of the "loopholes" in the rule books that have confounded and confused players, coaches and umpires is that they don't offer a precise definition of what exactly constitutes a batter being "out of the box" on this play.
Being "in the box" is clearly defined when a batter is in position to receive a pitch (both feet entirely inside the box, with no portion of a foot extended out beyond the lines). It's also spelled out for when a batter actually makes contact with the pitch (must not have a foot entirely on the ground outside the box at the moment of contact). But after the ball is hit, there is kind of a grey area, not specifically defined in the rules, of what precisely defines the exact moment that the batter should be considered as "out of the box".
Is it when one foot is out of the box? When both feet have left the box? What if one foot is out of the box, but still in the air, and the ball hits that foot? What if one foot is on the ground outside the box, but the ball hits part of the batter's body that's still inside the box? Strangely, the rule books don't define this exact moment as they do with most other plays.
This same "grey area" has existed in the Official Baseball Rules (the rules under which Major League Baseball is played)- up until this year. It wasn't until this season that they edited their rule to define a batter's "legal position" when being struck by his own batted ball, with respect to being in or out of the box. It only took them about 100 years to add that to their rules, so maybe the softball world will eventually come up with a definition of their own!
The "rule of thumb" I'd always been taught was that if the batter was taking her first, initial step out of the box after hitting the ball, then was unavoidably struck, give the benefit of the doubt to the batter and call it a foul ball- and sell the heck out of the call!. That is a guideline that has always worked for me.
This same question came up recently on forum for softball umpires and one very respected umpire posted that he has heard different interpretations presented for different sanctioning bodies. For instance, he stated that in NFHS and USSSA ball, the interpretation is that both feet must be out of the box to call the batter out. For ASA and NCAA softball, the interpretation is one foot out of the box. And even those interpretations might vary depending on who is giving them that day!
Until all those associations get something official in print, if I'm forced to make this call in one of my games here's what I would say:
If the batter's foot was in the air, not yet touching the ground when the ball hit her, then I would call it a foul ball. Since the batter could legally hit the ball from that position, I wouldn't consider it to be an illegal position to be hit by the ball. If a coach wants an explanation, I'll tell him that the batter had not yet exited the batter's box when the ball hit her. If he wants to protest that I've misapplied the rule, then he's welcome to. Let the protest committee sort it out- but they will be basing their decision on the same ill-defined definition of what constitutes being "out of the box" that is presently offered in the rule books. Good luck with that!
Until then...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Being "in the box" is clearly defined when a batter is in position to receive a pitch (both feet entirely inside the box, with no portion of a foot extended out beyond the lines). It's also spelled out for when a batter actually makes contact with the pitch (must not have a foot entirely on the ground outside the box at the moment of contact). But after the ball is hit, there is kind of a grey area, not specifically defined in the rules, of what precisely defines the exact moment that the batter should be considered as "out of the box".
Is it when one foot is out of the box? When both feet have left the box? What if one foot is out of the box, but still in the air, and the ball hits that foot? What if one foot is on the ground outside the box, but the ball hits part of the batter's body that's still inside the box? Strangely, the rule books don't define this exact moment as they do with most other plays.
This same "grey area" has existed in the Official Baseball Rules (the rules under which Major League Baseball is played)- up until this year. It wasn't until this season that they edited their rule to define a batter's "legal position" when being struck by his own batted ball, with respect to being in or out of the box. It only took them about 100 years to add that to their rules, so maybe the softball world will eventually come up with a definition of their own!
The "rule of thumb" I'd always been taught was that if the batter was taking her first, initial step out of the box after hitting the ball, then was unavoidably struck, give the benefit of the doubt to the batter and call it a foul ball- and sell the heck out of the call!. That is a guideline that has always worked for me.
This same question came up recently on forum for softball umpires and one very respected umpire posted that he has heard different interpretations presented for different sanctioning bodies. For instance, he stated that in NFHS and USSSA ball, the interpretation is that both feet must be out of the box to call the batter out. For ASA and NCAA softball, the interpretation is one foot out of the box. And even those interpretations might vary depending on who is giving them that day!
Until all those associations get something official in print, if I'm forced to make this call in one of my games here's what I would say:
If the batter's foot was in the air, not yet touching the ground when the ball hit her, then I would call it a foul ball. Since the batter could legally hit the ball from that position, I wouldn't consider it to be an illegal position to be hit by the ball. If a coach wants an explanation, I'll tell him that the batter had not yet exited the batter's box when the ball hit her. If he wants to protest that I've misapplied the rule, then he's welcome to. Let the protest committee sort it out- but they will be basing their decision on the same ill-defined definition of what constitutes being "out of the box" that is presently offered in the rule books. Good luck with that!
Until then...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Bretman,
Wow, before your response I was happy living in my simple world of the softball urban legend that there was a firm rule that a foot had to touching the ground outside or past the line for the batter to be called out. Now I understand there is more flex to the rule as interpreted today. Under your 'rule of thumb' it appears it would have been a foul ball since it was her initial step that caused her to hit the ball. Thanks.
Wow, before your response I was happy living in my simple world of the softball urban legend that there was a firm rule that a foot had to touching the ground outside or past the line for the batter to be called out. Now I understand there is more flex to the rule as interpreted today. Under your 'rule of thumb' it appears it would have been a foul ball since it was her initial step that caused her to hit the ball. Thanks.
I am no ump, but this is my study of the NFHS rulebook.
8-1-1 a. A batter becomes a batter-runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second and third and then home plate in the listed order when she legally hits a fair ball.
Sound like this has been met, so she is a batter-runner.
7-4-8 The batter is out. The batter hits the ball fair or foul while either foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box or while touching the plate. Note: A follow-through with the bat may carry one of the batter's feet entirely outside the box so it touches the ground as the ball is leaving the bat. It is customary for the umpire to ignore this if both feet were in legal position at the start of the swing and if it is not considered an attempt to circumvent the spirit of the rule.
Why this "note" is longer than the rule is a mystery to me. Does a "note" carry the same weight as a rule?
I take this to say that if the batter is in a legal position to receive the pitch and the action of hitting the ball carries the batter outside the box it is fine.
With this rule, I would question the above scenario being called a "foul ball". If the motion was a result of batting, yes call it foul. In the scenario above, the contact is a result of the batter-runner progressing toward first base, so I could understand an out call. Since the example states the ball is bouncing up from the plate, we must assume it is in fair territory.
8-2-6 The batter-runner shall be called out when: The batter-runner ...., makes contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base,....
2-25-1 f. A foul ball is a batted ball that touches the batter or the bat in the batters hand(s) a second time while the batter is within the batter's box;
This one stumps me, does the batter and the batter-runner mean the same thing in this rule?
2-5-1 Batter is the player of the team at bat who is entitled to occupy either of the two batter's boxes.
2-5-2 The batter-runner is a player who has finished her time at bat until she is put out or playing action ends.
I am starting to think the correct call would be the out, per the letter of the rules.
Bret, I do like your take on this, as I feel it keeps more to the spirit of the game. If in doubt call the foul and let the batter have another go at it.
Wait a minute, this raises a question that is not answered in the OP. Was it the third strike? If so the foul ball off a bunt on third would be an out. (7-4-9)
I think a change or addition to the rules to clarify this would be a good idea.
8-1-1 a. A batter becomes a batter-runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second and third and then home plate in the listed order when she legally hits a fair ball.
Sound like this has been met, so she is a batter-runner.
7-4-8 The batter is out. The batter hits the ball fair or foul while either foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box or while touching the plate. Note: A follow-through with the bat may carry one of the batter's feet entirely outside the box so it touches the ground as the ball is leaving the bat. It is customary for the umpire to ignore this if both feet were in legal position at the start of the swing and if it is not considered an attempt to circumvent the spirit of the rule.
Why this "note" is longer than the rule is a mystery to me. Does a "note" carry the same weight as a rule?
I take this to say that if the batter is in a legal position to receive the pitch and the action of hitting the ball carries the batter outside the box it is fine.
With this rule, I would question the above scenario being called a "foul ball". If the motion was a result of batting, yes call it foul. In the scenario above, the contact is a result of the batter-runner progressing toward first base, so I could understand an out call. Since the example states the ball is bouncing up from the plate, we must assume it is in fair territory.
8-2-6 The batter-runner shall be called out when: The batter-runner ...., makes contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base,....
2-25-1 f. A foul ball is a batted ball that touches the batter or the bat in the batters hand(s) a second time while the batter is within the batter's box;
This one stumps me, does the batter and the batter-runner mean the same thing in this rule?
2-5-1 Batter is the player of the team at bat who is entitled to occupy either of the two batter's boxes.
2-5-2 The batter-runner is a player who has finished her time at bat until she is put out or playing action ends.
I am starting to think the correct call would be the out, per the letter of the rules.
Bret, I do like your take on this, as I feel it keeps more to the spirit of the game. If in doubt call the foul and let the batter have another go at it.
Wait a minute, this raises a question that is not answered in the OP. Was it the third strike? If so the foul ball off a bunt on third would be an out. (7-4-9)
I think a change or addition to the rules to clarify this would be a good idea.
- Jun 22, 2008
- 3,438
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Where did the ball hit her?
Speaking ASA
If it hit part of her body that was not within the confines of the BB, the call is correct. "Out of the box" means not in the box. If the ball came straight up off the plate, that is a fair ball. If it hit part of the body that was over the plate, obviously, it isn't "in the box".
