ASA umpires placement on playing field?

[1fingeredknuckler]

Under what situation does the base umpire in a 2 man crew assume the position behind the ss? Is it with runners on 1st and 2nd or just 1st? With runners on 1st and 2nd id there is a DP, does he take 2nd and 3rd and the HPU takes 3rd? What happens if there is then an over throw at 3rd, who takes HP?

And lastly why in the H is the positioning behind ss instead of near 2nd base? There is no way he can see if a foot is in contact on 1st from clear over there, and if a runner is breaking for 3rd and the HP umpire is to cover 3rd, how can he be watching 1st?

I have a real problem with where ASA umpires are positioned, and i am just a spectator, former player, former official.

Lay it on me.

tks

 

[Comp]

Was just covered in depth.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/13786-bu-positioning.html

 

[BretMan]

Under what situation does the base umpire in a 2 man crew assume the position behind the ss?

Whenever there is a runner on at least second or third.

With runners on 1st and 2nd id there is a DP, does he take 2nd and 3rd and the HPU takes 3rd?

Hmmm...your question has two umpires both covering third base. I assume you mean "does he (the base umpire) have second and first and plate umpire takes third".

In this situation, with a ground ball on the infield, the BU is responsible for an initial play at third and any call at second or first. If the initial play goes to first or second, and then there is a subsequent throw to third, that is the plate umpire's call at third.

What happens if there is then an over throw at 3rd, who takes HP?

In the two-umpire system, the base umpire NEVER has the plate. EVER. (Unless the plate umpire happens to fall down somewhere and break his leg.)

On a call at third, the plate umpire should be up the line and then into fair ground. If the ball is overthrown and the runner advances home, PU stays in fair territory and moves back toward the plate parallel to the baseline.

And lastly why in the H is the positioning behind ss instead of near 2nd base? There is no way he can see if a foot is in contact on 1st from clear over there, and if a runner is breaking for 3rd and the HP umpire is to cover 3rd, how can he be watching 1st?

Simple solution? Hire three umpires. If teams are having an issue with the coverage three umpires provides, pony up and put one more on the field. Yet many groups seem to go the other direction and hire one umpire for their games.

Two-man mechanics are always going to be a compromise. Two sets of eyeballs can only see so much at one time. There is always going to be a trade off between covering everything and covering the thing that is most likely to happen.

I have a real problem with where ASA umpires are positioned, and i am just a spectator, former player, former official.

If you don't like the positioning, why don't you offer some realistic alternatives, instead of just complaining about it?

For every suggestion you make, or complaint that you have, there is a counterpoint. You can always do something differently, but "different" does not necessarily mean "better". The mechanics employed have over the years been refined, tinkered with and changed. This stuff doesn't evolve in a vaccuum. People think about this stuff, debate the pros and cons, then base their decisions on what will work most of the time, in most game situations. Are there at times holes in the coverage? Yes. But these holes are recognized flaws when using only two umpires. If you go through good umpire training you are made aware of these holes and taught ways to deal with them.

Sure, you could move the umpire to the other side of the field to cover one hole. Usually all that does is create a different hole on the side of the field you moved him from.

And I have to ask...why are you singling out ASA and their mechanics? These, or similar mechanics are used by every baseball or softball organization on the planet. There's nothing unique here about ASA.

 

[JDBerry]

In this situation, with a ground ball on the infield, the BU is responsible for an initial play at third and any call at second or first. If the initial play goes to first or second, and then there is a subsequent throw to third, that is the plate umpire's call at third.

Question:

If the BU is over behind SS and the play is at first, is the PU not better to make the call at first? I ask because last night we had two plays. One where the FB pulled her foot off the bag about 6", but the BU was in directly line with her and couldn't see the foot off the bag. Second was a bunt up FB line. FB grabs, bobbles the ball and then turns to make the tag. She puts her back between the BU and the play so the BU calls out but she tagged her with the glove and not the ball. The BU couldn't see that the ball didn't tag her, but the glove drug down the line with the runner so it appeared to be a legit tag.

On that play the FB actually told the ump that she missed the tag and the ump reversed her call. On both plays, the ump hesitated.

It would appear that the PU would have a better angle and it puts the BU making some difficult calls.

 

[BretMan]

On some plays the PU might have a better look, or angle. That's why they're instructed to trail the batter-runner up the first base line on most plays. Obviously, on plays where there might be a runner coming home, you can't do that. Sometimes the PU has to stay home and that is his primary responsibility. Not to say that he can't take a quick glance to first, if time allows, and be able to offer whatever he saw if asked.

But we're talking about swipe tags and pulled feet at first base, not normal plays. How often do those plays come up? Sure, you might have it twice a game like you did, but on average you might go several games without seeing it. In contrast, how many routine plays at first do you see? Usually, quite a few each game.

All other things being equal....which mechanic or positioning do you think should prevail? The one that covers something that might happen every few games or the one that covers something that happens many times in every game?

Let's say that we do decide the plate umpire will have calls at first base whenever the base umpire is behind the shortstop (which means that you have a runner is scoring position).

On a ground ball hit to the infield:

- What if...we have the plate umpire move out from behind the plate and move toward first base? After all, if distance from the base is your concern (BU is too far away) then keeping the PU near the plate doesn't solve anything. So I guess we have him move out.

The PU will have the best view of a play at first from inside the diamond, out near the pitcher's plate. But this view is the terrible for a pulled foot or swipe tag. The best place for that is right on the line- which happens to be terrible for viewing routine plays at the bag.

Now we've gone from having two umpires watch first from two different angles, to having only one (remember, your premise is that the BU is too far away, plus since we've pulled the PU off of third base, base umpire is going to have to be watching that, too).

- What if...the lead runner rounds third and heads home?

Now you have a PU out in the middle of the infield, away from the plate, looking at first base. The play at home will initially be behind his back, far from ideal.

If the ball was at first base, then a throw will be coming home. PU may now be directly in the line of fire, in the throwing lane between first and home.

PU will also have to race to the plate to be in a good position to make a call there, thus turning his back on the throw.

Sure, we could of had him stay near home in the first place, when a runner is in scoring position. But then that blows the whole advantage of having him closer to first than is the base umpire.

There's always a lot more to this stuff than "Let's just move one umpire to the other side of the field".

 

[jinjet95]

You can always ask the BU to ask for help from the PU. If they didn't have a good look, they will usually oblige. It happened to us this past weekend. R1 on 1st, BR hit line drive to 1B. 1B tagged R1 diving back to 1st. R1 never made it back to bag. BU called safe, but couldn't see the play well as our 2B was positioned between him and 1st. (1st base coach signaled safe, so don't know if that's what he went by or not). Our coach called time and asked if he would ask for help as our 2B was blocking his view. He did and discussed the play with PU, then overturned his own decision.

 

[JDBerry]

On some plays the PU might have a better look, or angle. That's why they're instructed to trail the batter-runner up the first base line on most plays. Obviously, on plays where there might be a runner coming home, you can't do that. Sometimes the PU has to stay home and that is his primary responsibility. Not to say that he can't take a quick glance to first, if time allows, and be able to offer whatever he saw if asked.

But we're talking about swipe tags and pulled feet at first base, not normal plays. How often do those plays come up? Sure, you might have it twice a game like you did, but on average you might go several games without seeing it. In contrast, how many routine plays at first do you see? Usually, quite a few each game.

All other things being equal....which mechanic or positioning do you think should prevail? The one that covers something that might happen every few games or the one that covers something that happens many times in every game?

Let's say that we do decide the plate umpire will have calls at first base whenever the base umpire is behind the shortstop (which means that you have a runner is scoring position).

On a ground ball hit to the infield:

- What if...we have the plate umpire move out from behind the plate and move toward first base? After all, if distance from the base is your concern (BU is too far away) then keeping the PU near the plate doesn't solve anything. So I guess we have him move out.

The PU will have the best view of a play at first from inside the diamond, out near the pitcher's plate. But this view is the terrible for a pulled foot or swipe tag. The best place for that is right on the line- which happens to be terrible for viewing routine plays at the bag.

Now we've gone from having two umpires watch first from two different angles, to having only one (remember, your premise is that the BU is too far away, plus since we've pulled the PU off of third base, base umpire is going to have to be watching that, too).

- What if...the lead runner rounds third and heads home?

Now you have a PU out in the middle of the infield, away from the plate, looking at first base. The play at home will initially be behind his back, far from ideal.

If the ball was at first base, then a throw will be coming home. PU may now be directly in the line of fire, in the throwing lane between first and home.

PU will also have to race to the plate to be in a good position to make a call there, thus turning his back on the throw.

Sure, we could of had him stay near home in the first place, when a runner is in scoring position. But then that blows the whole advantage of having him closer to first than is the base umpire.

There's always a lot more to this stuff than "Let's just move one umpire to the other side of the field".

I'm not suggesting any mechanical change. There's no way to be in perfect position in every possible situation. My questions should have had a "sometimes" in it.

In these 2 instances it appeared she wasn't sure of the call, there was a hesitation, but she didn't check with the PU. I guess my thought was in those instances (like a basketball ref will sometimes do) a glance towards the PU to see if they have the call. I don't think I see that in softball/baseball.

 

[JDBerry]

You can always ask the BU to ask for help from the PU. If they didn't have a good look, they will usually oblige. It happened to us this past weekend. R1 on 1st, BR hit line drive to 1B. 1B tagged R1 diving back to 1st. R1 never made it back to bag. BU called safe, but couldn't see the play well as our 2B was positioned between him and 1st. (1st base coach signaled safe, so don't know if that's what he went by or not). Our coach called time and asked if he would ask for help as our 2B was blocking his view. He did and discussed the play with PU, then overturned his own decision.

This always presents a bad image, IMO. If the PU clearly saw enough to overturn the decision, then they should conference before the coach got involved. I would hope that everyone can accept that the umpire can not clearly see and make a call on every single one, but he does have to make the call regardless. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes they just freaking guess because of the circumstances because they don't have the luxury of just not saying anything because they couldn't see it. But a conference or a glance at the other ump to see if they did would keep the coaches out of it (and the fans)

 

[1fingeredknuckler]

i just replied there
tks

Was just covered in depth.

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/13786-bu-positioning.html

 

[jinjet95]

This always presents a bad image, IMO. If the PU clearly saw enough to overturn the decision, then they should conference before the coach got involved. I would hope that everyone can accept that the umpire can not clearly see and make a call on every single one, but he does have to make the call regardless. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes they just freaking guess because of the circumstances because they don't have the luxury of just not saying anything because they couldn't see it. But a conference or a glance at the other ump to see if they did would keep the coaches out of it (and the fans)

I was impressed that they overturned it and he was big enough to say he didn't have a good look. I had always understood the plate ump couldn't say anything until asked. I've seen some umpires whose egos wouldn't have allowed them to overturn the call. These 2 got it right.