Oh, I don’t need this to complain!
Mound improvements between innings.
- Thread starter EC22
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
Oh, I don’t need this to complain!
- May 29, 2015
- 3,813
- 113
That is the exact opposite of the intent of the rule and asking for someone to get hurt.
(Though I will agree the MLB players are playing all kinds of ‘I’m so clever’ games at the plate.)
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,386
- 113
I don't wanna hijack this thread but, I really wanna ask @The Man In Blue a question, something I've always wondered. No, it's not whether the hands are part of the bat or not. lol
Umpires are responsible for the safety of the players, right? I mean, if there is a rain storm, it ultimately comes down to the umpire about calling the game, does it not? I know that might be somewhat different in the college levels, I can remember being part of some conversations at college games where the umpires would converse with the coaches about postponements or calling games for various reasons. However, when I would play in some leagues, it would ultimately come down to the umpires who would call of the games if the field got too wet during rain. I know some umpires have told me in the past that umpires can be sued for various things, including allowing unsafe conditions to be played on. So far, is that right?
Ok, so assuming that is right, how can umpires allow for some rec or travel ball tournament games to be played with the pitcher's circle looks like it has moon craters. Why isn't that considered a safety issue? Would an umpire be liable for allowing a game with unsafe conditions? Obviously tournament directors would also be liable but, in this society today where everyone sues everyone, would an umpire be liable if a pitcher got hurt during a game with major holes?
Umpires are responsible for the safety of the players, right? I mean, if there is a rain storm, it ultimately comes down to the umpire about calling the game, does it not? I know that might be somewhat different in the college levels, I can remember being part of some conversations at college games where the umpires would converse with the coaches about postponements or calling games for various reasons. However, when I would play in some leagues, it would ultimately come down to the umpires who would call of the games if the field got too wet during rain. I know some umpires have told me in the past that umpires can be sued for various things, including allowing unsafe conditions to be played on. So far, is that right?
Ok, so assuming that is right, how can umpires allow for some rec or travel ball tournament games to be played with the pitcher's circle looks like it has moon craters. Why isn't that considered a safety issue? Would an umpire be liable for allowing a game with unsafe conditions? Obviously tournament directors would also be liable but, in this society today where everyone sues everyone, would an umpire be liable if a pitcher got hurt during a game with major holes?
- May 29, 2015
- 3,813
- 113
@Hillhouse . . . my opinion and the opinions of people who are trying to bully/manipulate you into doing what they want you to do may vary. I also am not a lawyer, did not play one on TV, and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. My words and opinions are not necessarily the opinions of Discuss Fastpitch, any softball organization, or even any sane and rational person. My words are intended for entertainment purposes only. My words may not be rebroadcast or repurposed without the consent of Mid-Major League Baseketball. By continuing to read this post, you are agreeing to these terms, and YOU WIN NOTHING.
OK, now that those unpleasantries are out of the way . . .
Let me begin by saying that I believe at least 99% of those stories to be pretty much BS. They are provided by assignors and state directors who just want to push people around. A while back I embarked on a layman's journey of trying to find lawsuits against officials. I found very few, and almost none were for anything I have ever heard claimed (virtually all of them were related to the outcome of a game). If any lawyer or legal mind out there would like to help me, I would like to write a book on the subject.
Using NFHS as an example, here is the obligation of the umpire:
4-6 [Starting and Ending the Game] After the game starts (when the umpire calls “Play Ball”), the umpires are sole judges as to whether conditions, including grounds, are fit for play, and as to whether conditions are suitable for starting the second game of a scheduled doubleheader (two games between the same teams during the same day).
10-2-3(e) [The duties of the home plate umpire] call the game if conditions become unfit for play.
Here is going to be my defense . . . What training or guidance did NFHS (or my state association) provide me on determining field viability? Did I ignore that training?
You would need to prove negligence or recklessness on the part of the umpire to hold her/him responsible. You would need to prove the umpire was aware of the condition of the field and that the condition was not a "normal" circumstance of play. (I hate to say it, but IMO, the trench digging on a dirt field is a normal condition of play. It may be inconvenient if the pitcher cannot throw as they wish, but they still can pitch.)
Not saying that wouldn't happen, but if you are telling me the umpire is liable, I would say the coach who kept putting the kid back out there in a "dangerous" situation would be more liable.
OK, now that those unpleasantries are out of the way . . .
Let me begin by saying that I believe at least 99% of those stories to be pretty much BS. They are provided by assignors and state directors who just want to push people around. A while back I embarked on a layman's journey of trying to find lawsuits against officials. I found very few, and almost none were for anything I have ever heard claimed (virtually all of them were related to the outcome of a game). If any lawyer or legal mind out there would like to help me, I would like to write a book on the subject.
Using NFHS as an example, here is the obligation of the umpire:
4-6 [Starting and Ending the Game] After the game starts (when the umpire calls “Play Ball”), the umpires are sole judges as to whether conditions, including grounds, are fit for play, and as to whether conditions are suitable for starting the second game of a scheduled doubleheader (two games between the same teams during the same day).
10-2-3(e) [The duties of the home plate umpire] call the game if conditions become unfit for play.
Here is going to be my defense . . . What training or guidance did NFHS (or my state association) provide me on determining field viability? Did I ignore that training?
You would need to prove negligence or recklessness on the part of the umpire to hold her/him responsible. You would need to prove the umpire was aware of the condition of the field and that the condition was not a "normal" circumstance of play. (I hate to say it, but IMO, the trench digging on a dirt field is a normal condition of play. It may be inconvenient if the pitcher cannot throw as they wish, but they still can pitch.)
Not saying that wouldn't happen, but if you are telling me the umpire is liable, I would say the coach who kept putting the kid back out there in a "dangerous" situation would be more liable.
- May 27, 2013
- 2,387
- 113
I’d have to assume if there was going to be a lawsuit in this case, then they’d go after the ”deep pockets,” such as USSSA, PFG, etc, if it were a tourney or the school district or township if the rec league uses such fields. I highly doubt they’d go after the umpire. This is also why travel teams and rec leagues carry insurance. However, I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one.
ETA: What about rec leagues that use junior umpires (kids)? Are they going to be held liable too??
Last edited:
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,386
- 113
Interesting. While I know you were saying this with tongue firmly planted into your cheek as you wrote all that legal mumbo jumbo. LOL. I better catch up on the Law & Order episodes on TV to know if what you wrote will hold up in court.
You make a fair point, particularly in the last sentence about the coach putting the kid out there. In my unprofessional legal opinion, I'd think that would be a little trickier than the black/white issue of the umpire being in charge of field conditions to know what's "safe". The greed of tournament directors never ceases to amaze me. And I'm not suggesting they have to drag and rechalk the field after every game. But, I've seen and played on fields that might be pristine for the first game of the tournament, that's it. By the 8th game of the day on a youth softball field, the pitcher's circle looks brutal. The batter's box does too, but there's less injuries (or potential injuries) from that. A tournament director could pay some local kids $10 per hour to do minor maintenance between games, or every 2nd game or 3rd. But that would cut into profits. Perish that thought!!!! And not suggesting a TD should do all of this for nothing. I have been a TD myself and know the ulcer's I'd get from running a small 8 or 10 team men's fastpitch tournament once per year. And there's people in the girl's softball world who's sole occupation is running softball tournaments with 10, 20, 30, 40 teams. It's not easy and can be very stressful. I'm not suggesting they do all that is required and get nothing from it. So I'm ok with them making something. I had the luxury of 2 fields for 8 teams, allowing me to have 1:45 game times, allowing 15 min between for the city ground crew to re-chalk and fill in holes. I can't imagine running some of the bigger tournaments at multiple parks with countless teams. Even if the TD put a "tips" jar out there for college kids or whoever to fix the fields for tips only, that makes more sense than letting a 10 year old girl pitch from a massive trench, and landing in holes that are flat out dangerous. It's truly amazing that more injuries don't happen than already does.
I suppose it can be subjective as to what is "dangerous" and unsafe. And maybe it's like the famous quote from a Supreme Court justice once said regarding pornography "I can't describe it but I know what it is when I see it" (paraphrase).
TMIB, have you ever disallowed a game to play due to unsafe field conditions unrelated to weather?
- Jan 22, 2011
- 1,635
- 113
For USA Softball, junior umpires should have paid $40, or their league paid $40 for them, and they are covered with insurance. If they aren't registered with USA Softball as umpires, some parents may be in for a very expensive surprise.
We're headed up to some notoriously bad fields this weekend. Pitcher's mounds are horrible and one of our aces got hurt on these fields last year.
Question:
Can we have the pitchers stand on the very edge of the pitcher's plate? Anything we'd get in trouble for if we simply move so far over they land on more stable and flat dirt?
If the fields are as bad as we remember, we may forfeit some pool games. Hate to do it, but...
Question:
Can we have the pitchers stand on the very edge of the pitcher's plate? Anything we'd get in trouble for if we simply move so far over they land on more stable and flat dirt?
If the fields are as bad as we remember, we may forfeit some pool games. Hate to do it, but...
- May 13, 2023
- 1,538
- 113
I have gone out on to Fields with my own shovel and jug of water to fill in outrageous problems and pack the dirt down firmer. One time the people that were running the tournament came out and asked me who told me to do that. And I said no one should have to tell you to do it you should be able to recognize it needs to be done. Then they asked me if I was on a schedule doing it for the parks Department. I said no I'm a person who came to watch softball and saw there was a problem on the field. They replied you mean you just came out here on your own?!
I said 'That's right I'm glad you noticed someone cares about the field!
At least me being out here brought attention to the problem that was already here on the field that should have been resolved. Then I winked and said Have a great day!
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,386
- 113
I completely understand. I've played in games/tournaments where some rules had to be modified in order to get the game completed, i.e. pitching from the side of the rubber due to a trench having been dug that nobody fixed and rain creating an actual puddle in said trench. I would "assume" (yes, I know what assume means) that the umpires wouldn't care as long as both teams are ok with it. And/or getting the tournament director's blessing.
That's a great segway into the discussion TMIB and I were having, and he said the coach could be liable for allowing players to play on an unsafe field. To be honest, I hadn't thought of it like that but, in our society today where people sue everyone for everything I'm sure a coach would or could be named in a lawsuit if a young lady got seriously hurt playing a game in unsafe conditions. I seriously wonder if any parents have ever got some kind of injury insurance as a precaution. ESPN show host and former NFL kicker Pat McAfee said he had his leg (he was a punter in the NFL) insured by the Lords of London insurance company in case anything happened to his leg and he couldn't make a career from kicking the football. I've read about movie stars who've done the same thing, one actress insured her legs because that was her best feature shown in movies but that was a very long time ago. Anyway, while I agree with TMIB about a coach's possible culpability in this scenario, I still think it would ultimately come down to the umpire being in the most trouble. But, I don't have a law degree so I could be very very wrong on that. I just know the men (and women!) in blue are in charge of calling games off when the field is too wet because it's dangerous conditions. I would think a case could be made about the issues I've described of large holes and trenches in the pitcher's circle creating injuries. Now, could someone get hurt at a pitching lesson, then fall down on the field after the first pitch of a tournament claiming they got hurt on that field? Maybe. Today everyone has video cameras everywhere so it might be easy to see a pitcher landing awkwardly.
Anyway, special thanks to TMIB for his answer. It's a question I've always wondered about.
