"They'll be left so far behind!" he said about the 10yo's

[Momo'sDad]

Interesting. Every rec league President I know is trying to INCREASE participation levels, not usher kids out of the league

Part of his position is that if players are able to move directly to A teams specifically from our league, then we've done our job as a rec league. That's a reasonable argument and there is some support for that feeling. I think the best players should go join A teams at some point. But he doesn't really respect the value of B ball as a part of the average player's progression, and would rather the A division continue to be watered down.

To his credit, he has been a part of bringing so much growth to our league over the past few years, but this would be his 2nd time doing this.

If he were just a random dad, I'd have no problem at all with his actions, but openly doing so as the president of our league presents a conflict of interest.

 

[Momo'sDad]

Let me guess... Rec league president/A team coach coaches 10U...

Yes, he has an older travel team moving up to 14u and decided to start a 10u team with girls from rec this fall.

Scripts change as circumstances change, but I was initially (tentatively) supportive, because he said they were going in as a B team to play a few fall tourneys, with low expense, and then leave it to the parents and kids to see whether they'd want to continue on in A ball next spring or stay B which would give some or all of the players the option to play all-stars next summer if they wanted. Now, though, the HC and he are pressuring everyone to just stay with the team.

People are allowed to make their own choices, but as board members, I'd rather we were more honest with the parents who rely on us for information.

 

[ConorMacleod]

I'm not sure why young girls have to choose one or the other. My 10 yr old DD plays both in the fall. REC during the week and TB on the weekends. During the spring here there is only TB, and we play many more games. Rec ball here definitely doesn't have a high talent level, but DD is a pitcher and gets the opportunity to pitch in more games to a catcher and batters her age. I don't think that is ever a bad thing. Plus, rec ball is a chance for no pressure, lots of fun, and again, helps develop her skills.

 

[CoogansBluff]

There will be that transitional season when the experienced players have the advantage, but once the more talented players gain some of the knowledge and decision-making ability and they're all playing a similar number of games, the less talented players won't have any chance to keep up.

The cream is going to rise to the top, no matter how soon the B-level players are moved into A ball.

I agree w/ you that there shouldn't be a board policy that encourages or pushes kids into travel ball. The point of playing softball isn't necessarily to become great at it. Usually, it's just to play.

However, I don't necessarily agree with your theory about cream always rising to the top. In many cases, yes, the better athlete becomes the better player despite the late start, but many really good athletes start too late to become the best they could've been.

I see it a lot in middle school ball where some really good athletes are 12, 13, but are way behind in skill and knowledge of the game. No doubt in my mind that they could be the best players in 3-4 years, but they typically don't have the patience and vision for that. The average athlete who has played 80 games/year for 3-4 years is going to be a lot better than even the best athletes from rec ball in most cases.

Which brings me to another point: Where I live, it's hard to make a travel team at age 12, 13 unless you've played TB before, or unless you're really athletic. So where does that leave the middling athletes who haven't played travel ball until they're 12 or 13? They have little shot.

That said, I'll return to my first comments. Not becoming a travel ball player is no tragedy. A lot of players burn out because they started too soon. So I'd probably side with you philosophically when it comes to a rec organization.

 

[MsDinosaur]

I'm willing to believe there's not necessarily one world-wide absolute best time to jump from rec to tb. It's got to depend on the girl, her family, and the opportunities in the area.

For my area, my opinion would be that first year 10U would be a great time to start tb. My DD was a year later. It's been ok, but she would have been a happier camper if she hadn't aged out of her first team and I think she would have had a lot of development and fun during that extra year at 10U.

 

[MsDinosaur]

I agree w/ you that there shouldn't be a board policy that encourages or pushes kids into travel ball. The point of playing softball isn't necessarily to become great at it. Usually, it's just to play.

However, I don't necessarily agree with your theory about cream always rising to the top. In many cases, yes, the better athlete becomes the better player despite the late start, but many really good athletes start too late to become the best they could've been.

I see it a lot in middle school ball where some really good athletes are 12, 13, but are way behind in skill and knowledge of the game. No doubt in my mind that they could be the best players in 3-4 years, but they typically don't have the patience and vision for that. The average athlete who has played 80 games/year for 3-4 years is going to be a lot better than even the best athletes from rec ball in most cases.

Which brings me to another point: Where I live, it's hard to make a travel team at age 12, 13 unless you've played TB before, or unless you're really athletic. So where does that leave the middling athletes who haven't played travel ball until they're 12 or 13? They have little shot.

That said, I'll return to my first comments. Not becoming a travel ball player is no tragedy. A lot of players burn out because they started too soon. So I'd probably side with you philosophically when it comes to a rec organization.

We don't have MS ball, so I'm sorry to say, there are probably going to be some rec softball players who won't discover that making the school team is going to be really tough until they're HS freshmen. I do know that the HS has a C team in addition to the Varsity and Junior Varsity and I expect that's why it's there--so that the rec players can still play for their school.

Sure, a naturally skilled athlete is always going to come out on top if they work just as hard as the players with less talent. But eventually, how many hours of practice can natural talent overcome? I've read Outliers and am planning to read the Talent Code, which I believe postulates that approximately 10 years and 10,000 hours of deliberate practice is required to become expert in anything. If a girl waits until she is 13, 14, 15, etc. it's just not going to be possible to get anywhere close to that. Even most girls who've played tb from an early age won't get there, but I bet Jenny Finch, Jessica Mendoza, Cat Osterman, etc. have put in that sort of effort. If a kid just wants to play softball, then they should just play at whatever level makes them happy. However, if there happens to be some rare girl out there who burns to be a top tier player and she's still playing rec, then she should be looking to jump as soon as possible.

 

[undergroundga]

We stumbled into tb a couple years ago at the 8u level. My dd wasn't a good player, at the time. As a matter of fact, the summer before she started tb, My wife was her rec coach and didn't even pick her to be on the all-star team. But that fall her best friend tried out for an upstart 8u team. They were hard pressed for players and dd made the team. Needless to say they were not a good team(I think we won 2 games all year). The first tourney I went to was like one of those moments where the clouds part, the sun shines down on the field, and you hear angels singing. I was blown away by the way these tb girls played(completely changed my idea of fastpitch and more importantly the female athlete!) and I knew my dd was in over her head.
After a few tourneys and one particularly bad tourney dd and I had a daddy/daughter talk that changed both our futures. We(and I do mean we) decided that if she was gonna continue to play softball at that level we were gonna have to work hard and be committed to it. And work hard we have.
Now we are going into our second year in 10u. Dd is on a much better team. She is not the most talented athlete on the field but her work ethic(can you say that about a 9 yr old) gets her over the hump and has made her a better than average player.(along with a big committment from crazy parents, this guy in particular).
Right now we are trying to convert our summer league all-star team into a tb team . Most of the parents on the team have no clue how different rec ball is from tb. It's not som much about the level of talent as it is the level of committment. TB players, and their families, put so much more into playing than most families in rec ball. I think that is the big deciding factor about when a girl should enter tb. With a strong commitment from a young lady(and her family) even a bad rec girl can become a good tb player. Maybe she won't make an A team but there are teams out there for every skill level. If a girl is willing to put in the work.
I too talk to parents that think tb is a bad thing for younger players. But for most of those parents it's more of a personal bias and not based on their dd's skill level.
Does that make sense?

 

[blazerdad]

I was blown away by the way these tb girls played(completely changed my idea of fastpitch and more importantly the female athlete!) and I knew my dd was in over her head.
Does that make sense?

Just had some flashbacks to about 12 years ago. My DD was a 9 year-old rec player and we happened to come across a TB game by our house. We watched for a while and finally had to ask "are these girls 12 or 14 years old?" No, they were 10U. It was at that moment my DD wanted to play TB. We had absolutely no clue what TB was like and this opened up our eyes big time. The amount of improvement the players received by playing better competition was incredible. We went to TB and never looked back. But she had the passion and that makes all the difference in the world. Now we are both starting a 10U team made up of mostly rec league players making the jump to TB.

If a girl doesn't make the jump to TB before 12U, she could make up the lack of TB playing time if she is a decent athlete. After that it gets much harder. fastpitch is about muscle memory and perfecting throws, swings, pitches. Natural athletes don't simply overcome that because they are athletic. 20 years ago? Ok. Not today. I've even seen TB players play with with B level programs through sophomore year of HS that could have been a lot better had they played A level TB. We recruited one like that when she was 16; the player and parents were simply astounded as to how much better the competition was at A level TB. She regrets not knowing about it years before.

 

[Momo'sDad]

I'm not sure why young girls have to choose one or the other. My 10 yr old DD plays both in the fall. REC during the week and TB on the weekends. During the spring here there is only TB, and we play many more games. Rec ball here definitely doesn't have a high talent level, but DD is a pitcher and gets the opportunity to pitch in more games to a catcher and batters her age. I don't think that is ever a bad thing. Plus, rec ball is a chance for no pressure, lots of fun, and again, helps develop her skills.

They have to choose because of the parent agendas at work.

I have no problem copping to my all-star agenda, because over the past 30+ years, I've witnessed how developing a culture of strong, competitive sports teams can benefit small communities and really enhance that thing called 'community'. It's age-dependent, because 10u is the level at which our girls are 1st eligible for all-stars.

Our league is coming off a great year in 10u rec, because we had so many 10yo players back in the league and had plenty of pitching and a few good catchers, too. The summer all-star team had its best season ever. Next year had the potential to be even better with the 2002 class, but a couple of coaches who wanted their own teams decided not only to remove their DDs, but to scare a few other parents into joining them on 2 different teams, 1 10u (that hopes to be A) and 1 12u (that hopes to be A, but is really B at best). I only talked to 1 set of parents about bringing their daughter back, but won't campaign any further. Our daughters are good friends and are playing together this fall, but they don't realize that, since they want to forego all-stars next year, she'd be better off going to an 10u A team than a 12u B team.

A player can play B ball and still become all-star eligible, though. I do hope for her to have a great season, but that door will be open if she wishes.

As for my own DD, she says she wants to play all-stars 1 last time, but doesn't really want to come back if there's no other pitcher, and of course I'm fine with whatever she decides.

 

[Momo'sDad]

We stumbled into tb a couple years ago at the 8u level. My dd wasn't a good player, at the time. As a matter of fact, the summer before she started tb, My wife was her rec coach and didn't even pick her to be on the all-star team. But that fall her best friend tried out for an upstart 8u team. They were hard pressed for players and dd made the team. Needless to say they were not a good team(I think we won 2 games all year). The first tourney I went to was like one of those moments where the clouds part, the sun shines down on the field, and you hear angels singing. I was blown away by the way these tb girls played(completely changed my idea of fastpitch and more importantly the female athlete!) and I knew my dd was in over her head.
After a few tourneys and one particularly bad tourney dd and I had a daddy/daughter talk that changed both our futures. We(and I do mean we) decided that if she was gonna continue to play softball at that level we were gonna have to work hard and be committed to it. And work hard we have.
Now we are going into our second year in 10u. Dd is on a much better team. She is not the most talented athlete on the field but her work ethic(can you say that about a 9 yr old) gets her over the hump and has made her a better than average player.(along with a big committment from crazy parents, this guy in particular).
Right now we are trying to convert our summer league all-star team into a tb team . Most of the parents on the team have no clue how different rec ball is from tb. It's not som much about the level of talent as it is the level of committment. TB players, and their families, put so much more into playing than most families in rec ball. I think that is the big deciding factor about when a girl should enter tb. With a strong commitment from a young lady(and her family) even a bad rec girl can become a good tb player. Maybe she won't make an A team but there are teams out there for every skill level. If a girl is willing to put in the work.
I too talk to parents that think tb is a bad thing for younger players. But for most of those parents it's more of a personal bias and not based on their dd's skill level.
Does that make sense?

It does make sense, and your decision to move your daughter over to TB also makes sense, because generally speaking, your rec and all-star programs are not nearly as developed as ours in northern California.

Our system is set up really well for the younger groups, because they can play travel Jan-Mar and then Sep-Nov, with the Apr-May set aside for town rec and Jun-Jul reserved for all-stars.