Hand Path

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thank you SBF.

I agree ... it almost looks like Casey is demonstrating a swing as if there was an imaginary "connection device".

In your use of this drill, are you replicating what Casey is doing with the rear elbow? Seeing that you are using the "hand path device", I can envision a benefit to teaching a hand path ... or at least promoting a proper diagonal barrel at contact ... along with having the rear elbow slot as in a normal game swing.

The reason I ask about an objective of having a vertical rear forearm so far out front, is because that objective, coupled with a mentality of wearing a "connector device", is what Casey's swing resembles ... and it doesn't resemble a game-swing that I've ever seen before.

One of my concerns with having the elbow so widely displaced from the body, as Casey demonstrates, is with the adjustability to inside/outside. To me, the "hand path device", would seem to help promote having a hitter learn to arrive at 'contact' with the barrel in an ideal position ... and if you do that for different pitch heights, then all the better .... and if you include inside/outside, then that would be a plus as well.

 

[Wellphyt]

I prefer what Mauer does. I see his back elbow tuck down right away, before his hands turn the corner. I see his front elbow max up before his hands turn the corner. While in this position I see his hands back and up at his rear armpit and the barrel of his bat pointing directly behind him. IMO this is how you hit in a big zone. IMO if hitters can get to this position on time they will most likely have a lot of success.

IMO the key to getting into this position requires the player to work their back arm like Mauer. Yes, the feel is in the hands, but there are at least two other ways for the hands to start the barrel. IMO, the other two ways are not as efficient as what Mauer does. In my area I see very few girls using their hands the way Mauer does. Some drop their hands and then swing. Others hold their hands up and back, and yank the knob forward at swing initiation.

 

[tom.guerry]

there are 2 basic total body whipping patterns. there many other disconnected type swings, but for these 2 total body patterns, the determining factor is how connection happens at the shoulder level between the body and arms.

the 1 plane PCR turn the bat in the shoulder plane by turning the shoulders has a true "circular handpath" with a feeling of keeping the hands in with tiny little alligtor arms. In softball, candrea and enquist call this "the gate swing".

the 2 plane HLBB swing has more handpath "extension". traditionally people see this extension as different from the purely circular handpath and have often encouraged "knob to ball" drills to try to create the more extended handpath result they see in high level hitters. extension of the arms at the elbow is NOT how this pattern is created, however. Instead it is created by turning the bat between the hands as the hands stay at the shoulder and keeping the flex/bend in the back elbow as the GO move creates additional separation between the shoulders and hips with rear hip thrust. This enables a sequence that fires the bathead as the torso stretch reverses with the segmented swing with "extebnsion" that has good "addition" (candrea and enquist describe a type of "connection" that provides "addition" in the softball swing that is the same as the HLBB swing).

The patterns are best described in golf:

1 plane circular handpath, see 6 min 45 second mark to 9 min mark on first link for demo of how handpath stays closer to body than 2 plane swing:

Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - One Plane from Down the Line

Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - One Plane from Face On



2 plane handpath extension:

Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - Two Plane from Down the Line

Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - Two Plane from Face On

 

[RichK]

Others hold their hands up and back, and yank the knob forward at swing initiation.

Just to be crystal clear: Mauer's "hands back and up at his rear armpit" is good, if from that position they are whipped through in a connected way via rotation of (roughly) hips followed by shoulders,etc.

"Hands up and back" but * yank the knob forward at swing initiation" is bad, basically a push disconnect.

Am I right?

I'm sorry if I'm using any language that muddies up the conversation. I just want to understand the THREE ways you see girls initiating the swing.

TKS.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Wellphyt ... IMO, there is a lot to like about Mauer's swing.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

 

[Chris O'Leary]

* yank the knob forward at swing initiation" is bad, basically a push disconnect.

Technically, a bottom hand yank is a pull disconnect.

A push disconnect is more of a top hand push.

 

[Wellphyt]

Just to be crystal clear: Mauer's "hands back and up at his rear armpit" is good, if from that position they are whipped through in a connected way via rotation of (roughly) hips followed by shoulders,etc.

"Hands up and back" but * yank the knob forward at swing initiation" is bad, basically a push disconnect.

Am I right?

I'm sorry if I'm using any language that muddies up the conversation. I just want to understand the THREE ways you see girls initiating the swing.

TKS.

IMO, the most efficient swing has the hands connected to the back shoulder up until the hands turn the corner. Most coaches and instructors know that dropping the hands, especially in FP where the hitter's have to deal with rise balls; is bad. So many girls in FP are taught to keep their hands back and up. I hear it all the time in the cages. "Keep you hands up"..."Don't drop your hands"..."You're dropping your hands" etc.

The result is that we get a lot of girls in FP who simply hold their hands back and up. When they initiate their swing they do it from a dead stop, resulting in a yank of the knob or a push of the knob. A yank of the knob by the bottom hand results in a pull disconnect and a push of the top hand results in a push disconnect.

In another thread there is a clip of Casey hitting soft toss. Copy the clip to your computer and open it up in QuickTime. Once it's open, click the right arrow key on your key board 23 times. The 23rd click is IMO a good example of a push disconnect. At least that's what it looks like to me from the angle the clip is filmed from. Others may disagree.

Many of us out here in FP land believe there is a more efficient way to keep the hands connected to the back shoulder than what is commonly taught. For those who don't like to use MLB players as models for FP hitters (even though that's what many top FP players and coaches do), I would study the swing of Jen Yee. Yee uses a vertical bat handset, therefore the rear arm action that some of us think is important is easier to see.

Watch how far Yee's barrel travels without her moving her hands down or forward towards the pitcher. Take note of the direction the barrel travels. The barrel is moving behind her, not towards the pitch. As the barrel is moving behind her, she has not actually initiated her swing yet. What she is doing is breaking inertia and getting the barrel moving so that when she makes the decision to swing the barrel is already in motion. So what you have with Yee is a hitter who is able to get the barrel moving without dropping her hands or moving her hands or the barrel towards the pitcher.

If you had 5 athletes running in a 100 yard dash, where four of the athletes had to start from starting blocks and one was allowed to get a running start and hit the start line at full speed just as the gun sounded. Which of the athletes do you think would have the advantage? Sail boat racers do the same thing. They try and hit the start line at full speed just as the gun sounds.

IMO, the key to doing what Yee does with her hands is related to how she works her rear arm. She has figured out how to tuck her rear elbow and get her hands into a strong hitting position in the most efficient way possible. From there it's my opinion that hitters throw their hands. IMO the throw is top hand dominated.

As far as the hips go, when hitters turn the barrel behind them as Yee does, the hips automatically have time to get out in front. As long as they are in sync.

Which brings me to my final point. When coaches tell hitters to keep their hands up, they are IMO making it very difficult for the kids to figure out how to sync things up. They are inadvertently removing the hitter's rythm. I actually tell my daughter that it's ok to let her hands drop as she cocks her back hip. Then as she strides I want her hands to arc back up to armpit height (upper arm internally rotates - this was a non-teach with her). All she is doing is duplicating the part of the overhand throw motion where the hands separate. I recommend that all parents take a t-ball sized bat, pretend it is a ball, and turn a double play, meaning you actually throw the bat through the air. Just don't throw it at somebody. Throw it into open space.

 

[lclifton]

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I actually tell my daughter that it's ok to let her hands drop as she cocks her back hip. Then as she strides I want her hands to arc back up to armpit height (upper arm internally rotates - this was a non-teach with her). All she is doing is duplicating the part of the overhand throw motion where the hands separate. I recommend that all parents take a t-ball sized bat, pretend it is a ball, and turn a double play, meaning you actually throw the bat through the air. Just don't throw it at somebody. Throw it into open space.

IMO, what you describe here, can assist a hitter in the creation of separation as RudyJ describes separation ... one of his "absolutes".

Nice description.