Swing down

[Bonesaw]

Can someone point out to me where the "hand pump" we see Bonds demonstrate happens in this swing? Looks like a barrel turning behind the shoulder to me.

Ya it's deceiving. It looks like that because his hands go toward the pitcher as he turns forward. That is why the barrel lays down/looks like that.

This move is a pure isolation of how his hands work/try to work. If you removed all body turn etc.


Similarly deceptive to this in golf. A similar hand isolation of the golf backswing would be his "push away" at 4:00. You add in body turn/pivot and you get a backswing.

 

[julray]

At the very end of the first. gif it looks like he is starting to torque the barrel rearward. Yes I agree his hands/arms are working freely up to that point. I don't see anything that would indicate "down to" in the 2nd .gif. Looks to me like he snaps the barrel rearward and uncoils. 3rd .gif he goes down and gets an off speed pitch.

Interesting discussion, but I think I need to give up. I just can't see what you are seeing. Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see it.

Donaldson explains this in more detail below... notice he says this has nothing to do with power

 

[TDS]

At the very end of the first. gif it looks like he is starting to torque the barrel rearward. Yes I agree his hands/arms are working freely up to that point. I don't see anything that would indicate "down to" in the 2nd .gif. Looks to me like he snaps the barrel rearward and uncoils. 3rd .gif he goes down and gets an off speed pitch.

Interesting discussion, but I think I need to give up. I just can't see what you are seeing. Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see it.

There is a change in direction of the barrel during the float..

 

[julray]

Me hit ball. Hitters are not the brightest bulbs. I'm just saying.

You feel qualified enough to come to that conclusion? We have 99% of the best ball players in the world saying the same thing and you are saying they are all dumb... c'mon man, seriously?

 

[jdint]

Donaldson explains this in more detail below... notice he says this has nothing to do with power

This makes perfect sense to me, he is turning the barrel to get on plane. That's what I see Bonds doing.

 

[FP26]

I am interested in what the aren't saying as well, but more interested in what they ARE saying.

They are saying;
Down to

They aren't saying;
TTB

I know every time I mention TTB people get offended or refer back to TM. Regardless what you believe TTB is or any other kind of forced pivot, hand/forearm motion to get the bat on plane asap... "Down to" is the exact opposite as per pro demo.

We all can agree that pros have excellent sequence and posture. Posture and good sequence is an athletic movement IMO, you see it in a lot of sports besides baseball as well. What the hitter does with their hands is fine tuning and isolated, that's why the pros talk about and isolate their hands so much. I can't tell you what isn't important to them, but it's obvious what is, "down to"JMHO

For me, I stopped looking at what they weren't saying, and focused on what they were saying

So, you "stopped looking at what they weren't saying", but still need to state that they "aren't saying; TTB". Interesting how only certain things matter to you. Not important, but definitely interesting. And very telling. For what it's worth, I also never hear them say anything about "forward yet back". If they have, I have missed it. I definitely never heard any pro talk about "cat/cow". I would love to hear that if you have a clip of it. (note: if you are not sure what I am referring to, there is another poster here that can explain it to you. I never did understand it completely myself.)

My point is if the pros are truly "teaching" what they do, they are not doing a very good job of it. If a young student asks me how to solve a math problem, I'm not going to hand them a calculator and walk away.

For the most part, I agree with the bold statement above. We are on the same page with this. However, I think we can also agree that most 10 to 12 year old players don't have "excellent sequence and posture". That needs to be taught somehow by someone. Basically I learned two things from your post.

1) If my student is a professional that already has excellent sequence and posture, all I need to do is show them how to swing down.
2) If my student is not a professional that already has excellent sequence and posture, telling them to swing down is not the answer. Or, to not offend you, not the complete answer.

 

[julray]

This makes perfect sense to me, he is turning the barrel to get on plane. That's what I see Bonds doing.

He's snapping the barrel rearward right? Or is he presetting the direction? For example; This is a low pitch, he doesn't need to preset because the direction already on path... is he TTB here?

 

[clemenslee1]

So, you "stopped looking at what they weren't saying", but still need to state that they "aren't saying; TTB". Interesting how only certain things matter to you. Not important, but definitely interesting. And very telling. For what it's worth, I also never hear them say anything about "forward yet back". If they have, I have missed it. I definitely never heard any pro talk about "cat/cow". I would love to hear that if you have a clip of it. (note: if you are not sure what I am referring to, there is another poster here that can explain it to you. I never did understand it completely myself.)

My point is if the pros are truly "teaching" what they do, they are not doing a very good job of it. If a young student asks me how to solve a math problem, I'm not going to hand them a calculator and walk away.

For the most part, I agree with the bold statement above. We are on the same page with this. However, I think we can also agree that most 10 to 12 year old players don't have "excellent sequence and posture". That needs to be taught somehow by someone. Basically I learned two things from your post.

1) If my student is a professional that already has excellent sequence and posture, all I need to do is show them how to swing down.
2) If my student is not a professional that already has excellent sequence and posture, telling them to swing down is not the answer. Or, to not offend you, not the complete answer.

The bold stands out to me. Truth is that pros have brutally efficient sequence and posture already!

 

[FP26]

The bold stands out to me. Truth is that pros have brutally efficient sequence and posture already!

Yep... So if I am working with a youngster, what should I work on? Swinging down? or sequence and posture? My answer is definitely sequence and posture.

 

[julray]

So, you "stopped looking at what they weren't saying", but still need to state that they "aren't saying; TTB". Interesting how only certain things matter to you. Not important, but definitely interesting. And very telling. For what it's worth, I also never hear them say anything about "forward yet back". If they have, I have missed it. I definitely never heard any pro talk about "cat/cow". I would love to hear that if you have a clip of it. (note: if you are not sure what I am referring to, there is another poster here that can explain it to you. I never did understand it completely myself.)

My point is if the pros are truly "teaching" what they do, they are not doing a very good job of it. If a young student asks me how to solve a math problem, I'm not going to hand them a calculator and walk away.

For the most part, I agree with the bold statement above. We are on the same page with this. However, I think we can also agree that most 10 to 12 year old players don't have "excellent sequence and posture". That needs to be taught somehow by someone. Basically I learned two things from your post.

1) If my student is a professional that already has excellent sequence and posture, all I need to do is show them how to swing down.
2) If my student is not a professional that already has excellent sequence and posture, telling them to swing down is not the answer. Or, to not offend you, not the complete answer.

FP, I'm having a hard time getting past your 1st sentence because I clearly stated this " I am interested in what the aren't saying as well, but more interested in what they ARE saying." Stop putting words in my mouth.

Edit: Chill out, when I say TTB, I am not attacking you or anybody else for that matter. The only reason I mention TTB is because it's a complete contradiction of what the pros say when they talk about down to... it's not personal

Show me a student(or swing the bat yourself) with excellent posture and great sequence with a down to approach and bad barrel path