The art of distinguishing true competitiveness

[RubberBiscuit]

I am gonna hit this topic one last time, but this time directly in its own thread.

I have been in and around sports for a long time.

The one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the inability for "good" coaches to differentiate between skills and competitive passion. I have seen sooo many coaches get in awe of raw skill and end up wondering why there is failure to compete when the athlete has no gritty "accept no loss" passion.

As an example of extremes i always refer to Mike Singletary. He was short on skills but long on grit. Pete Rose was like this too. These folks i would want with me in battle.

Then in contrast are those that can just have the most amazing play-making skills but when ya need that gritty moment out of them they fold.

Why cant 50% coaches see this quality (or lack thereof) in athletes?

 

[CoogansBluff]

Great topic, but it's hard to answer the question as you've posed it. We all think that we are evaluating players accurately, or else we'd change our evaluations. So if we have a blind spot, we don't know it.

Maybe the question could be asked like this -

"When you find yourself disagreeing with other coaches about the value of players, is it more often because you value the athlete's competitiveness more than the other coach? Or their grit/determination?''

If people were honest, the answers would be 50/50 on each side. But inevitably that won't happen because most people think they see heart better than the next guy.

Now, having written my own question, I'm still not sure of my answer. My first priority is production. If a player is producing (look at the stats), then that is my bias. I don't care that much why a player produces - whether it's raw talent carrying them or true grit. If you hit .400 with an ugly swing and a bunch of ''lucky'' dink hits, I reward that quicker than other coaches do. Not saying that's right or wrong, but I've seen that pattern. Those disagreements are common. Other coaches are more likely to say, 'I don't care what she's hitting, I just trust this other girl more.'

I can remember a couple of examples of where I've remained loyal too long with a great athlete who didn't apply herself. But I also can remember times where my loyalty to their athleticism and history proved other coaches wrong. I've kept an email that I use to needle a former assistant coach of mine who couldn't believe me when I told him who are best three hitters were going to be. He liked one, but not the other two because he thought they were lazy and weren't coachable. Well, they put up monster numbers. But I'm wrong a lot too. You never know.

For every Wes Welker, there is a Tim Tebow or a Bobby Hurley. Can't be any more competitive than those guys, but NFL/NBA people overrated the value of their grit.

 

[Cannonball]

The truly athletic person you speak of has a ceiling that they will never hit and the grit person has a ceiling that they will hit. The hope then is to find that button that will force that athletic to realize what they can be. Doesn't often happen but does enough to keep coaches trying. One of my gritter teams had a fantastic year. They were not picked to do much in the area polls when the season started. They won a regional and lost in a very good game to a team that placed 2nd in state in our largest division. After the game I was sitting with my seniors who's careers had ended. One dirty sweaty, worn out young man told me that he felt good about the loss because he didn't have more to give and that the other team was better. Still, he felt that our team pushed them to the limit which was true. In all honest, he was right. That other team was a lot better. I'll take those gritty players any day because that is the same qualities those young men will have in life. Same with the young ladies!

 

[BaldNBeautiful]

I will freely admit that I struggle in this area. Sometimes I value athleticism and potential too much. What are somethings that you do in tryouts to bring that competitiveness out?

 

[Six11 Hitting]

I am still learning on this side of the things. One of the things I have found most valuable is a good conversation with the kid if you don't know them. Asking the right questions you can really tell quickly if they have that grit or not. In my eyes finding those kids that hate to lose is very important and can make all the difference...

 

[sluggers]

Honestly, I think you've been watching too much ESPN. The reality is that skills and talent almost always trump "passion and desire". (If not, why even practice?)

If you want to win the big competitions, you have to know what you are going to do and how you are going to react *BEFORE* you play the game. Then, you have to keep your head during the game and perform up to your ability level.

there is failure to compete when the athlete has no gritty "accept no loss" passion.

The phrasing of this is also totally bass-ackwards. The great player don't think, "I refuse to accept a loss!" The great ones think, "What can I do to win?"

You don't want lots of passion in most sports--especially sports like softball, basketball, golf, etc., where there are lots and lots of games. You want consistent, high-level play.

In most competitions, "scrapping and fighting" results in penalties and errors. You want intelligent people who perform to the best of their ability under pressure.

As an example of extremes i always refer to Mike Singletary. He was short on skills but long on grit. Pete Rose was like this too.

Smoking the wacky weed again, eh RB? Saying Pete Rose and Mike Singletary didn't have skills and amazing talent is insanity. Both of them had natural ability far above the rest of us. In addition to their abilities, they also worked very, very hard. They were extremely competitive...but to suggest all they had was "grit and determination" is ridiculous.

 

[CoogansBluff]

Also, you've been watching too much ESPN. You don't want lots of passion in most sports--especially sports like softball, basketball, golf, etc., where there are lots and lots of games. You want consistent, high-level play.

I like how you put that. ...

A player's emotional reaction to winning or losing (which would include 'hate') is not always a good gauge of a player's heart. Some kids are result-oriented, and maybe they focus more on winning or losing, and maybe they'll brood or get mad at losing. That's fine. But others are process-oriented. They can compete just as hard, but when it's over, it's over. They enjoy the battle itself. It's just personality. As a coach, I'd be happy with any player who is dedicated and tries to get better. Her emotional response to the inevitable frustrations along the way shouldn't reach either extreme, and certainly shouldn't be the ultimate measure of her grittiness or her value as a player. Especially in softball, where you might play 75 games a year. You learn. You move on.

 

[CoogansBluff]

Smoking the wacky weed again, eh RB? Saying Pete Rose and Mike Singletary didn't have skills and amazing talent is insanity. Both of them had natural ability far above the rest of us. In addition to their abilities, they also worked very, very hard. They were extremely competitive...but to suggest all they had was "grit and determination" is ridiculous.

Also true. Not sure that was RB's point, that they arrived purely on grit and determination, but these are not good examples of players who proved proved any coaches wrong. They were recognized as outstanding from an early age.

 

[Cannonball]

When I played in HS, I was cut both my freshman and sophomore years. I was that gritty, in your face, ... competitor. Because I came from the bad part of town, the HS coaches perceived that as me being, "too mean." I made the team my Junior year and was all everything both my junior and senior years. However, I was never a natural athlete. I just loved playing. When I got to college, grit and determination didn't help me overcome the athletes. They were just so much better. I knew it. Hey, there is a place for both types of players. My dd is not a natural athlete. She too has grit. She has done well to this point. Is there a moment when that isn't good enough? Stick around we'll see.

 

[sluggers]

When I got to college, grit and determination didn't help me overcome the athletes. ... My dd is not a natural athlete. She too has grit.

But, isn't that inconsistent? Your DD is success in college. So, I believe she is a very good athlete.

BUT, as you point out, college teams are full of good athletes. The athletes that succeed are the ones that work hard.