Stealing Home - Ughhhhhh

[Sweet Lou]

OK, so lets say it's not a WP or PB, but the pitcher's lack of attention to the runner of 3B who is attempting a delayed steal. If the runner makes it home, even with the pitcher attempting to make a throw, do you award the runner the steal? Going from 10U to 12U the runners were then allowed to attempt a steal of home and a few coaches played the game this way. I saw this done to our 14U team TWICE because the pitcher wasn't paying attention to the runner on 3B.

That would in fact be a steal of home.

 

[Greenmonsters]

I agree that the catcher's job is very difficult, especially when a pitcher is facing very tough batters that she is trying to pitch around. Likewise, the scorekeeper's job is very difficult and shouldn't be taken lightly by anyone in the stands who happens to have a pencil handy. Is it tempting to just write "SB"? Yes. Should one? No. Every effort should be made to make an accurate assessment of each and every advancement around the bases, even if it is a youth-ball type of a mess where the temptation is to just write "huge mess, no idea, 20 runs just scored somehow"
GM, if you are talking about college, then I'm surprised at the lack of astuteness from the scorekeeper? I can't imagine a situation in college where a run scored would be a straight steal of home???

The issue I've seen in college is the SB credited to the runner on first in a 1st and 3rd situation when a play is not attempted when that runner advances to 2B. Instead of a SB it should be scored as a FC due to "defensive indifference" (see NCAA rule excerpt below).

14.15.2 A stolen base is not credited to a base runner as a
result of defensive indifference when no play is made on a base
runner because the player’s advance is perceived to have no
bearing on the outcome of the game. The base runner’s advance
is scored as a fielder’s choice (See Rule 14.15.3 for first
and third situations.)

 

[Sweet Lou]

The issue I've seen in college is the SB credited to the runner on first in a 1st and 3rd situation when a play is not attempted when that runner advances to 2B. Instead of a SB it should be scored as a FC due to "defensive indifference" (see NCAA rule excerpt below).

14.15.2 A stolen base is not credited to a base runner as a
result of defensive indifference when no play is made on a base
runner because the player’s advance is perceived to have no
bearing on the outcome of the game. The base runner’s advance
is scored as a fielder’s choice (See Rule 14.15.3 for first
and third situations.)

I think you are ignoring this condition too much. The score of the game and inning of play may have big impact on whether this should be scored a stole base or defenive indifference.

7th inning of a game with batting team trailing by 1, that's a stolen base 100 times out of 100. You've just put the winnig run in scoring position.

7th inning of a game with batting team trailing by 3 or more that's defensive indefference 100 times out of 100. All you did was take away the double play, the run is meaningless to the outcome of the game.

Other scenarios could go either way depending on game situation, inning and score.

 

[CoogansBluff]

OK, so lets say it's not a WP or PB, but the pitcher's lack of attention to the runner of 3B who is attempting a delayed steal.

Stolen base.

It has to be scored as something, so we then must ask what else could it be? It's not a WP. Not a PB. Not an error (which is a physical misplay, not a mental misplay). Not indifference (unless you believe the defense didn't care).

 

[Greenmonsters]

You are correct but how it is ruled really depends on the competitiveness of the league. That is
rec - everything is credited a stoled base
B-travel - unless you have a decent scorekeeper, probably same as rec
A-travel - by12 U and above scorekeeper really should start getting this right
High school - should be consistent with A-travel, that is scorekeeper should get it right assuming they know what they are doing
NCAA - has official scorer for each game right? You'd think they would know the difference at this point.Oh and if a runner is stealing on the pitch (not after it is by the cacther) it is still a stolen base even if the pitch would have been a PB/WP had the runner not been trying to steal.

You would think, but I've seen a foul ball sac fly get considered an official at bat in the box score. Scorer got fair ball sac flies scored right (0-0, 1 SF, 1 RBI), but treated the foul one differently (0-1 1 RBI) for some reason

 

[Greenmonsters]

I think you are ignoring this condition too much. The score of the game and inning of play may have big impact on whether this should be scored a stole base or defenive indifference.

7th inning of a game with batting team trailing by 1, that's a stolen base 100 times out of 100. You've just put the winnig run in scoring position.

7th inning of a game with batting team trailing by 3 or more that's defensive indefference 100 times out of 100. All you did was take away the double play, the run is meaningless to the outcome of the game.

Other scenarios could go either way depending on game situation, inning and score.

Perhaps, but if NO play whatsoever (as in no throw is made to P, 2B, SS, or 3B) is even attempted to stop the runner from advancing to second, you can still make a case for the FC instead of SB because if the defensive team perceived that runner's presence on 2B to have a bearing on the game outcome they would have done more than absolutely nothing to try to prevent it. The FC arguement is further strengthened if they walk the next hitter to create a force and/or pitch to a weaker hitter/better matchup.

 

[abbygale]

Every effort should be made to make an accurate assessment of each and every advancement around the bases, even if it is a youth-ball type of a mess where the temptation is to just write "huge mess, no idea, 20 runs just scored somehow"

Priceless! And accurate many times.

 

[Sweet Lou]

Perhaps, but if NO play whatsoever (as in no throw is made to P, 2B, SS, or 3B) is even attempted to stop the runner from advancing to second, you can still make a case for the FC instead of SB because if the defensive team perceived that runner's presence on 2B to have a bearing on the game outcome they would have done more than absolutely nothing to try to prevent it. The FC arguement is further strengthened if they walk the next hitter to create a force and/or pitch to a weaker hitter/better matchup.

It doesn't matter what the defensive perception is. It's what the official score keeper perceives the value of the advancement with respect to the possible outcome of the game that is importantant.

And I think the notation is DI (Defensive Indifference) not FC (fielder choice).

 

[Greenmonsters]

Even those who attempt to differentiate may struggle to get it right. ... Example: Runners on first and second go on the pitch. Catcher drops the ball. Is it a passed ball because the catcher dropped it? Or is it stolen base because they were going on the pitch? Is it one stolen base or two? I'm pretty sure that's a double steal, but I was having a debate with another coach on that recently. ... Then with wild pitches and passed balls, that's very subjective. At the higher levels, you can expect a catcher to stop balls in the dirt in front of them. At younger/lower levels, those plays are pretty tough. It's very hard to get scorekeepers on the same page both objectively and subjectively when it comes to SB, WP, PB, etc.

Part of the struggle is that HS and college scoring guidelines actually differ. NFCA scoring guidelines consider the bold above to be a WP. NCAA ruling requires evaluation of whether it should have been stopped with "ordinary effort" in order to make a PB/WP determination.

Since T-Ball ended, I've followed what I now know to be the NCAA guideline approach because my objective was to identify what a catcher needed to work on and evaluate their progress. IMO/IME, in general the further in front of the catcher a pitch hits the ground, the more unpredictable the bounce and more difficult it is to block. The rule of thumb I've used is that if a ball hits on the plate or in front of the plate its usually a WP. If a ball hits the dirt in back of the plate its usually a PB unless the ball takes an erratic bounce.

 

[guero_gordo]

he rule of thumb I've used is that if a ball hits on the plate or in front of the plate its usually a WP. If a ball hits the dirt in back of the plate its usually a PB unless the ball takes an erratic bounce.

Great stuff if you can pry the scorebook out of the hands of the Pitcher's mom. Otherwise, it's a PB if it bounces over the backstop off the pitching rubber.