Rec league competitive guidelines?

[AnonymousTroublemaker]

I am wondering what sort of guidelines other towns/leagues have to prevent team stacking for rec ball. I read a couple of other threads and see that it's a fairly common problem. I would like to hear what you have seen implemented that has worked (as well as can be).
We are in a multi-town rec league. What we've seen is towns essentially create an all star team with two other teams who's best player is worse than the primary team's worst player. It's frustrating because we destroy these other teams, neither teams involved in these games are having much fun. Then, conversely we can also get destroyed by the all star teams, again, not much fun for either team in non-competitive games.
The league has rules against this practice such as travel ball player/involvement limits and requiring travel ball players to be split evenly. It seems to not really be enforced... adults want their kids to have rec ball trophies.
I have a couple thoughts that I want to bounce off the forum to see how feasible you think they are. Or, if you have things you have done/seen done with success or tweaks you would recommend. Our area now has low participation rates for older girls because of this and other things (not rotating, forcing poorer batters to bunt/slap instead of developing them, etc.). Maybe it's a pipe-dream but I would love to see larger agencies (ISAA NSA) recommend reform around these things.
1. Create a point system based upon previous year stats and have roughly equal points among a towns players. I think with Game Changer frequently used it should be possible to look at batting stats like slugging, OBP, errors, ERA etc. from the previous season to divy up girls.
2. Force mid-season trades based on records (I imagine granting 4 players protection but allowing you to pull other girls like when pro teams with expansion drafts while sending some girls back).
3. Banning any towns that have allowed obvious stacking from tournaments.
4. limit of one bunt in fair play per girl per game
5. Require travel girls to play one outfield inning per game
I'd love to hear feedback and ideas. Thanks everyone. (This is my first post but I've read the forum all the time. The people here are great. I know the focus is mostly on travel but poor rec ball is possibly one thing holding the sport back).

 

[Orange Socks]

How far are these towns apart? Is it possible to do a skills assessment/draft for the whole league? Our 10U division had about 12 teams, 12U 8 teams and 14U 2 teams-we did a Coop with another league and schools that had MS teams. But we always did a draft to spread out the talent.

Coaches kids were slotted based on skills assessment by the other coaches.

 

[AnonymousTroublemaker]

How far are these towns apart? Is it possible to do a skills assessment/draft for the whole league? Our 10U division had about 12 teams, 12U 8 teams and 14U 2 teams-we did a Coop with another league and schools that had MS teams. But we always did a draft to spread out the talent.

Coaches kids were slotted based on skills assessment by the other coaches.

Thanks for the response and your question. I would say it's about county-wide for a midwest state. We're in the middle and the furthest away is about an hour... but if we were on the edge then it could be around a two hour drive. I think that makes practice very difficult. Also, the girls like playing with their friends from their towns. However, I wonder if a modification would be sending each town's presidents out to do their assessments and make sure it seems evenly spread or oversee the draft process. That said, I've heard that some parents have their kids play poorly for the assessments to fudge the system for such evals. I am also aware, just being on travel doesn't make one a good player so just saying spread out travel doesn't necessarily work either. That's why I was thinking at looking at stats... a lot tougher to ask someone to play poorly for a season to fudge the system. But, perhaps that's all too complex.

Thanks again!

 

[The Man In Blue]

A national org will never do this because they are only interested in teams paying their fees, not in actually having to do anything. The only way it happens is with local people (who may use a national org).

Many moons ago I took over a local program that had been around since the mid-1970s. Until a few years before my time, we drew enough girls from our town (population appr. 3,500) that we never had to go anywhere. We had full leagues from 16u down.

I took over shortly after the ascension of travel ball, when community leagues were dying. That means I could field about 3 teams at each age level, but not enough for a league. We had to start looking to other towns. The problem is, nobody wants to give up what they are doing. My first few years we would partner with a different organization each year, just to see a disastrous end to the partnership. I finally found a few people in neighboring communities who were like minded and we tried to develop a PONY League organization. We had a good plan and a nice thing going, but after two years of fighting the battles with our own local boards, we all gave up and left.

Now, this cycle is beginning its death spiral. Travel ball killed community ball (around here any way) ... and now there is no entry point into the game for kids, so travel ball is now dying.

The best suggestion I ever heard was quit drafting teams. Host "open fields" and let the kids play sandlot games. They will police the talent disparities and balance things out.

 

[AnonymousTroublemaker]

A national org will never do this because they are only interested in teams paying their fees, not in actually having to do anything. The only way it happens is with local people (who may use a national org).

Many moons ago I took over a local program that had been around since the mid-1970s. Until a few years before my time, we drew enough girls from our town (population appr. 3,500) that we never had to go anywhere. We had full leagues from 16u down.

I took over shortly after the ascension of travel ball, when community leagues were dying. That means I could field about 3 teams at each age level, but not enough for a league. We had to start looking to other towns. The problem is, nobody wants to give up what they are doing. My first few years we would partner with a different organization each year, just to see a disastrous end to the partnership. I finally found a few people in neighboring communities who were like minded and we tried to develop a PONY League organization. We had a good plan and a nice thing going, but after two years of fighting the battles with our own local boards, we all gave up and left.

Now, this cycle is beginning its death spiral. Travel ball killed community ball (around here any way) ... and now there is no entry point into the game for kids, so travel ball is now dying.

The best suggestion I ever heard was quit drafting teams. Host "open fields" and let the kids play sandlot games. They will police the talent disparities and balance things out.

I get what you are saying. I think there's a misunderstanding of what's truly good for the sport by these national organizations. When you see the little league world series, it's a big success. It's because there's regulations for this sort of thing and people like watching it imperfect players and line-ups and all. Travel ball doesn't have a big audience or market... it's very niche and elitist. It creates a financial entry point. It's a bad product but it can be profitable and suck money out of upper middle class families. I think if softball can create a similar system to what little league has done it would be good. I know little league has tried to set up something for softball as well but it's just not their focus.

I've seen the politics and the issues. It seems all the presidents of local leagues get drunk with power. We have one town that insisted all games be played on their field. We have another that has bad catchers so they insist on no dropped 3rd strike.
That said, to your point, I don't mind the idea of sandlot games but I think that takes away some of the coaching, strategy, and friendships that go with team creation. I like that there's teams. In sandlot games I think you always get the same girls in the outfield and such while a coach (if good) will mix it up. I just think... there's gotta be a better way.

 

[RADcatcher]

I get what you are saying. I think there's a misunderstanding of what's truly good for the sport by these national organizations.

Basically when it comes down to *people in sports whether it's City leagues/ travel ball / High School venues.
There is going to be the crowd that wants everybody to have fair and equal playing time. Fair and equal competitive teams. And there are people that want to conquer and win. You can try to control the city leagues by having rules that try to make it equal for people.
But .... At a certain point competition is some people's goal, these people will take the option that is uncontrolled by a City League. And go to travel ball. will not be able to remove that aspect from society.

Travel ball doesn't have a big audience or market...

Travel ball is a HUGE audience & market.
This is why it exists and has torn apart City Leagues.
Important to recognize that travel ball happens because of a lot of volunteers who put together teams who want to play travel ball. There is a freedom in being able to do what people want and create their own schedules. Then there are people that have teams and now coaches can get paid a small stipend. Then there are the bigger money makers. In each of these categories is opportunities that people have taken on to create teams and opportunities for players without being regulated how to do so. It is a choice that has taken on huge proportions!

 

[Strike2]

When I coached Rec, there were always a couple of 8/10U teams that were hand-picked and played tournaments. It was tough going early in the season with a large random roster team where there were only a handful of kids with any experience/competence. While it annoyed the heck out of me at first, some of the most memorable games I was ever a part of saw my kids beat some of those teams the second time around. Occasionally running into a player from those teams later, the first thing out of their mouths was a recollection of what happened in one of those games.

Competitive/Travel/Tournament ball...whatever you want to call it...killed the Rec game for anything beyond 12U. When I first got involved with this in the late 2000s, there was a viable 14/16/18U Rec league in my medium-sized city. That's long gone now. 12U Rec can also be a bit thin, but there are usually at least 4-6 teams spread over several neighboring towns. While it's contracted some where I am, T-Ball through 10U Rec still appears a viable entry point for new players.

As I see it, the problem is with boards filled with committed parents whose kids are in or played higher-level travel. Many look down their noses at Rec and, while it can be a cash cow, they don't do much to support new coaches and teams. Because they have a hard time getting new coaches, they cram 15+ players on the existing rosters, which gives the unfortunate coach a huge management headache and the kids a bad experience. They also allow coaches who bring in whole teams to influence the rule sets that allow younger/less experienced players to learn without being miserable (such as pushing the D3K rule).

 

[Cougars]

When you see the little league world series, it's a big success. It's because there's regulations for this sort of thing and people like watching it imperfect players and line-ups and all

Maybe for the local town A vs town B, but I think once you get into the world series, aren't most of the teams full of travel teams/players, 'pretending' to be the misfit group of local kids? Around here, most of the places that participate in little league have their travel players play in enough of the "house" leagues to qualify, and then the LLWS team is just the regular travel team, maybe slightly adjusted to meet whatever the LL rules are. Especially true when you have orgs that have a house league and travel teams under the same leadership.

 

[Orange Socks]

Travel ball doesn't have a big audience or market... it's very niche and elitist.

Wonder why there are 1000 teams that show up to Colorado every summer? At the upper crust TB can be expensive if you truly travel across the country for competition. Or you can stay in your immediate region and not travel. A family can choose the experience that matches their needs. Plenty of lower socio economic families playing TB.

 

[Strike2]

Maybe for the local town A vs town B, but I think once you get into the world series, aren't most of the teams full of travel teams/players, 'pretending' to be the misfit group of local kids? Around here, most of the places that participate in little league have their travel players play in enough of the "house" leagues to qualify, and then the LLWS team is just the regular travel team, maybe slightly adjusted to meet whatever the LL rules are. Especially true when you have orgs that have a house league and travel teams under the same leadership.

I played slow-pitch years ago with a guy who coached his baseball team to the LLWS finals. Yeah, his team was an "all star" team from a legit local LL. I've also seen softball travel teams from the same org form a league, play a few games, and then combine. They ended up winning the softball LLWS a couple of years ago.