Can someone help me define “securely” or “complete control” as it relates to a catch?

[AcesFullMoon]

Situation: 8u Fastpitch game, SS throws to first base for force out on batter-runner and the ball beats batter-runner but hits first baseman’s glove palm and rolls up the glove. Batter-runner crosses the base before first baseman squeezes the ball and stops its movement, but it never lost contact with her glove and when she squeezed it, it was secured in the web, not even a snow cone.

I called batter-runner out and coach pointed out she hadn’t fully secured the ball when b-r crossed base. I told him I understood why he was asking and I’d get him the verbatim rule later, but I’d never ruled a runner safe when ball is in glove and not trapped.

We use NSA rules and I posted that below. I also reference NFHS rules because NSA rules are often poorly worded by comparison. The fist line of the rule says a catch is a “legally caught ball that occurs when a fielder secures a…thrown ball with his/her hand or glove.” But further down it says “In establishing a valid catch, the fielder shall have complete control of the ball…”

NFHS doesn’t really illuminate the situation as it just uses the word “securely gains possession…”

So, how do you guys interpret “secures, complete control, or securely gains possession”? Would you apply a different standard at different age levels? At 8u, where good defensive plays and outs can be hard to come by, I’m inclined to always call it the way I did. Ball in glove is a catch.

But I also call Middle School ball. Would you keep that same standard or would you require the ball to be securely squeezed without movement, like a football catch? I’m pretty adamant about calling the rules as written, fan reaction be damned, but I feel like scrutinizing how securely a ball is held at 8u is gonna open me up to constant scrutiny as on alot of tags, I wouldn’t necessarily say the ball is securely held, but you bet I’m calling an out unless the ball pops loose.

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[Strike2]

"Securely" and "complete" means that the ball isn't moving around.

If you can clearly see the ball roll up the glove, it's not a catch until 1B has it under control.

 

[AcesFullMoon]

"Securely" and "complete" means that the ball isn't moving around.

If you can clearly see the ball roll up the glove, it's not a catch until 1B has it under control.

After reading both rules and making the post, I’m inclined to agree with you, despite my call. I try to apply the same standards across all ages and apply rules as literally as possible, but it’s human nature to cut a little slack at 8u and tee ball levels, even though I try to avoid doing that.

I’m curious what other opinions I get. Thank you for the reply. Also, we say catch/no catch, safe/out, fair/foul are all judgement calls, but the coach calmly pointed out the ball was moving and not secured. Would you consider that a valid appeal or does whether it was “securely” held fall under the realm of judgment and I need to stick to my call, even if I feel I incorrectly judged it?


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[EdLovrich]

In all of the instruction I have received, securely held, means the ball is not rolling about as has already been stated. The second part, complete control, is referenced in the latter part of that rule, to wit: the release is voluntary. In other words, you meant to try to remove the ball from the glove, or 'flipped' it from glove to hand. They are difficult to describe in words, but you know it when you see it.

Would you consider that a valid appeal or does whether it was “securely” held fall under the realm of judgment and I need to stick to my call, even if I feel I incorrectly judged it?

An appeal of judgment from a coach is NEVER valid. There are things a coach can come to you asking, such as "Did you see the ball rolling up her arm? or Did you see the ball on the ground after she applied the tag?" For catch/no catch (or any call really) just remember, "It ain't nothing until you call it" take your time, see the entire sequence of events (including for a catch/no catch the voluntary release), let the little VCR in your brain re-see it, then make your call.

If you have good, slow timing and aren't anticipating calls, the times you question your own judgment will fall to near zero.

 

[Northball]

I suspect if you tell the coach she had it secured, it's judgment. If you say to the coach the ball was moving in the glove but that's a legal catch, then it opens the call to be a misinterpretation or misapplication of the rule, subject to appeal. IMHO.

 

[EdLovrich]

misinterpretation or misapplication of the rule, subject to appeal protest.

 

[Northball]

Yep. Duh to me.

 

[AcesFullMoon]

An appeal of judgment from a coach is NEVER valid. There are things a coach can come to you asking, such as "Did you see the ball rolling up her arm? or Did you see the ball on the ground after she applied the tag?" For catch/no catch (or any call really) just remember, "It ain't nothing until you call it" take your time, see the entire sequence of events (including for a catch/no catch the voluntary release), let the little VCR in your brain re-see it, then make your call.

If you have good, slow timing and aren't anticipating calls, the times you question your own judgment will fall to near zero.

Great advice on slowing down. Thank you. I’ve been calling 6 years and I still struggle with being too quick with my calls sometimes, especially on the bases.


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[AcesFullMoon]

I suspect if you tell the coach she had it secured, it's judgment. If you say to the coach the ball was moving in the glove but that's a legal catch, then it opens the call to be a misinterpretation or misapplication of the rule, subject to appeal. IMHO.

And that’s another thing I’m still working on after 6 years. Sometimes I offer up too much. By telling the coach I saw what he saw and understand why he’s asking about it, I feel like I probably did open myself up to an appeal.

At that point, he could say I wasn’t applying “securely”, thus misapplying the rule right?


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[AcesFullMoon]

Still figuring out how to correctly reply in the app but in reference to Northball saying my phrasing opened me up to an appeal. You corrected it to “protest.”

Because I didn’t stick to saying “Eh, it was secured coach” I would have needed to honor an appeal at their point if he’d insisted, you think? And if I’d continued misapplying the catch definition, he could then play under protest?


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