Throwing

FiveFrameSwing said:

Bold above ... my personal throw is more like how Hodge describes the throw ... or a subset of Hodge's description ... Hodge misses the importance of thoracic extension, and that is present in my throw.

Watched a local Varsity HS game this morning. The majority of throws were more like Tewks described where the front thigh was more of a trigger for re-direction ... those using the front thigh as a trigger for external rotation were in the minority. Also as an FYI, 100% of those making decent throws performed thoracic extension on the onset of the lead thigh trigger.

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I am a true believer now....

...believe in the critical importance of thoracic extension, as you call it (I'm not that technical). Worked on this with my 10 year old for whom throwing mechanics are her weakest link. I've never had such incredible results in a shorter time. She threw some lasers

...believe the importance of TE is missing from Hodge

...believe Tewks is indeed onto the importance of TE...however, I do not necessarily believe in (or against) bending the arm way behind the head. It is the getting the weight "back-back" part, as Tewks puts it, that is critical.

Also, curious about the sequence. So, when you say "like Tewks described", are we saying Tewks promotes a specific mechanics that are different, or is it just that this girl happens to be at a certain point? Do you believe in one or the other? Sounds like you still favor timing as Hodge describes it, if I understand you correctly.

The drill Tewks describes begins with the throwing arm extended back away from the target. From this extended position the ball is then directed behind the head ***AS*** the thrower steps open.

Stepping open can be related to the ‘trigger’ as Hodge defines it … i.e., the rolling over the lead thigh (external rotation of the lead femur).

While Tewks states that one should not be concerned with ‘internal’ or ‘external’ rotation during his drill, to ‘stay back’ as he demonstrates, both thoracic extension and external rotation are seen to occur. This has the thrower in a position in which there is a feel of significant elastic stretch from which to whip the arm forward as it extends.

What Tewks is stressing is a directional change.

As Tewks describes his drill, the starting point has the arm extended back, … hence there is no internal rotation as a result of performing a ‘hand break’ … mainly because the drill begins beyond where a ‘hand break’ would be in a throwing sequence. As demonstrated, there is no contradiction with Hodge’s description. That said, someone could take what is described and not pay detailed attention to how Tewks performs his ‘stay back’ … which does include both thoracic extension and external rotation … and which places a focus on directional change and not on the occurrence of external rotation … which is seen to take place as demonstrated.

FiveFrameSwing said:

In other words, your own data suggests that the "L" is not the goal ......

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I've been saying for 9 pages to NOT take your arm to the "L" position as a goal. When the lower and upper body are properly in sync, the "L" is a pass through position just like every other orientation the arm gets in once the front thigh rolls over.

What I've been clearly saying is that if a player takes their arm to the "L" position (external rotates) prior to the front thigh rolling over, they significantly increase their risk of injuring their shoulder. IMO Tewk's student has clearly externally rotated her throwing arm prior to her front thigh rolling over and is at risk of injuring her shoulder. I would never teach a kid to throw all out in a drill like Tewks' girl is doing, where they are out of sync.

IMO the directional change that Tewks is focusing on is the result of the throwing arm being in sync with the lower body. As Hodge correctly points out, when the throwing arm is in sync with the front thigh roll over, the head and arm naturally want to come forward at the appropriate time. IMO thoracic extension is the result of a well synched up throw. IOW a throw that has the upper and lower body in sync will result in a more explosive weight transfer, leading to the directional change and thoracic extension that Tewks is after.

You can get the same results without subjecting the shoulder to injury.

The reason I initially took such an interest in the overhand throw was because my DD kept complaining about her arm hurting. She threw like a lot of girls do where they land on a stiff front leg; the back leg doesn't release hardly at all; and the throwing arm decelerates almost straight down. She was out of sync.

Now that she is in sync she transfers her weight just fine and she hasn't complained of her arm hurting in two years. I haven't measured her thoracic extension lately so I can't comment on that, LOL. Did I mention her arm doesn't hurt anymore

Wellphyt ... please take a look at the 'before' and 'after' in Tewks' student.

In terms of synchronization, the external rotation could be said to have been better sync'd with the weight transfer, for the girl's 'bad throw'. Yet the kid's throw was terrible. She lacked thoracic extension. For her, and for many young girls that are taught the "L" as demonstrated in the GIF above, thoracic extension is virtually absent ... and their resulting throws look largely unproductive and uncompetitive. For her, and for many others, thoracic extension is not merely a 'result' of synchronization ... for many, it is not natural, or has been trained to not be natural. Thoracic extension is an actual effort/action ... an effort/action that is sync'd.

Here is the Yankee's closer Rivera in sync with front thigh completely rolled over as arm gets up into the "L".


Here are two sequential frames of Maddux. These two frames are a big key in understanding when and why thoracic extension takes place. The sudden change in direction of Maddux's shoulders is what causes the Thoracic Extension in the second image. Maddux doesn't lay his arm back behind his head and THEN experience a directional change. Thoracic Extension will take place when the directional change takes place, if the directional change is explosive enough. IMO you will get a much more explosive directional change if you get the kids to sync up their throwing arm with their lower body. Which Hodge's material teaches better than any other overhand throw material I have seen.



Hodge doesn't get into TE because TE happens if you are in sync and get an explosive directional change. If action "A" and "B" leads to action "C", why do I need to worry about teaching action "C"?

OK guys I am way behind and way less technical.

First, when you talk about TE, that is when you "lean back" so to speak, right?

If that is correct, isn't the critical clip here the first one, where Maddux has already extended his thorax. When the thigh rolls over he is starting to flex. Or do I have this all wrong?

It seems TE needs to be built into the load, before the thigh rolls over. And this is not at all intuitive as FFS states. I am not sure you get it for free as you are saying Well.

About the closest Hodge gets to it is when he talks about keeping the head back, IMO. He doesn't demo TE, or talk about its importance. But he does talk about keeping the head back. Even after your front foot plants isn't there an instant where your head is still back? And if so, when Hodge is saying keep your head back, at that point when your hips and torso are rotating, back means back as Tewks talks about it, you are now leaning back so to speak the moment before you launch the arm.

Sorry if I am intruding on an otherwise coherent discussion.

Wellphyt said:

Here is the Yankee's closer Rivera in sync with front thigh completely rolled over as arm gets up into the "L".
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Here are two sequential frames of Maddux. These two frames are a big key in understanding when and why thoracic extension takes place. The sudden change in direction of Maddux's shoulders is what causes the Thoracic Extension in the second image. Maddux doesn't lay his arm back behind his head and THEN experience a directional change. Thoracic Extension will take place when the directional change takes place, if the directional change is explosive enough. IMO you will get a much more explosive directional change if you get the kids to sync up their throwing arm with their lower body. Which Hodge's material teaches better than any other overhand throw material I have seen.

View attachment 1940

Hodge doesn't get into TE because TE happens if you are in sync and get an explosive directional change. If action "A" and "B" leads to action "C", why do I need to worry about teaching action "C"?

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Sorry ... the bold above is not correct. There are many kids that can be taught to sync but don't necessarily TE. It is not an automatic for everybody ... and it is quite possible to be in sync and yet not TE ... I say this because I've seen a a ton of terrible throwers, and lack of TE is one of issues ... simply teaching a proper sequence, or the sequence as described by Hodge, does not guarantee TE. Hodge missed it ... simply because he overlooked it ... or perhaps because he was over focused on the "L" relationship.

Like I said earlier ... Hodge has some good information ... but he completely missed the importance of TE ... and to claim that the sequence automatically creates TE is incorrect.

Yes Mr-T, I think you have the concept correct. I’m fine with calling TE a loading … or even resistance.

I generally think of TE as taking place at approximately the same time as what Hodge considers as the trigger … the lead upper thigh rolling over.

Question for you … perform a few throws. What is the trigger for you? Is it the TE? Is it the lead thigh? Is it both occurring in parallel?

Mr-T … for me personally … the stretch-like connection I wish to feel powering my throw doesn’t take place if I purposely avoid TE.

Simply performing external rotation of the upper front leg, while externally rotating the rear upper arm, provides little stretch if I don’t also TE.

Think of it this way … what stretch do you get if you stretch one end of a rubber band and let the other end of the rubber band float freely. You won’t get much of a stretch at all. Now take that analogy forward and you can see why many people don’t have a goal of an “L” in their actual throws.

FiveFrameSwing said:

Yes Mr-T, I think you have the concept correct. I’m fine with calling TE a loading … or even resistance.

I generally think of TE as taking place at approximately the same time as what Hodge considers as the trigger … the lead upper thigh rolling over.

Question for you … perform a few throws. What is the trigger for you? Is it the TE? Is it the lead thigh? Is it both occurring in parallel?

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Sort of tough to gauge at first. The Heisenberger principle may apply. I did some throws. It seems all very connected. Yes seem to happen at approx same time.

So... I tried to have some throws with rolling the thigh only. It was quite easy not to externally rotate my arm. Then I tried to not roll the thigh, extend my thorax, and not externally rotate my arm : very difficult!!!

Someone might protest that I have these ideas in my head, however I am now convinced TE is absolutely the trigger to externally rotate my arm, not the rolling of the thigh.