Shoulders vs Hands

[RayR]

Are the hands connected to rear shoulder? Are the shoulders turning the hands? Are the hands guiding the barrel and the shoulders support this move?

You decide.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The 'hands' are 'connected' via the shoulder.

Connection is an 'action' ... not a position or even a fixed orientation.

See post #174 here.

 

[tom.guerry]

mts -

I think the clip you show is warmup/early in BP/relaxed swinging that typically emphasizes the part of the sequence where the rear hip gets ahead of the hands due to the way the hands control the swing sequence/space/timing and creation of resistance to turning with the hip. This is the essence of "hands and hips" feel and the shoulders are not a point of emphasis.

 

[redzuk]

You posted this before, looks like the hand is tied to the shoulder, I think you see the opposite.

That’s where the other thread was going, shoulders or hands.
Where does this swing go wrong? The kid keeps the power V to connection. It looks good then she just loses it.

Does the front elbow have any forward motion? I see a little but not until the back elbow is nearly slotted.

I'm leaning towards the shoulders are just not connected, missed the train, no reason to tie the hands to the shoulder because its not doing anything. You can only rotate so far before the torso has to move the shoulders, thats where she tries to get on board, but its too late, too close to where the hands need to be getting off the train.

I admit to a hand phobia, other than having the right grip they just dont do much so why mess with them. I've spent some time comparing the bat drag clip to Tyson, trying to see what the kid would have to do to look more like Tyson. Seems to me like the feel she is missing is the power transfer from the core into the upper body. I can actually see how telling the kid to do something different with the hands might help. Do you have some specific hand activation or barrel path drill?

Sometime before next summer I plan to show a kid the deltoid drill. She is 11, played for two years, definitely has an arm swing. She swings too much with the arms so the last thing I want her to think about is the hands, thats makes sense to me.

 

[RayR]

One drill I do with my girls is have them stand facing a wall about 12-14" away. I tell them to elvis the back knee to shift as they get the hands up and back. then slowly move the hands forward so they ride along the wall (not touching) until they feel the bat hit the wall. We check the bat angle at this point and it has flattened. It started up, but flattened as the hands came forward. Compare what I deescribed to the barrel action of the girl posted.

Also - to note is that the front elbow must make a good first move and stay up as the hands ride along the wall. The back elbow will not jam into the rib cage, but instead leave some space so that the hands can stay above the elbow easier.

Watch the Tyson clip and see if you can visualize the drill I just described. Where would the bat hit the wall? The bat is being turned behind her - I don't advocate a push disconnect as others assert. The bat is turning and will get into the hitting zone early.

As a reference the hands should ride along the wall at about neck height - any lower for the drill and you retard the movement.

That’s where the other thread was going, shoulders or hands.
Where does this swing go wrong? The kid keeps the power V to connection. It looks good then she just loses it.

Does the front elbow have any forward motion? I see a little but not until the back elbow is nearly slotted.

I'm leaning towards the shoulders are just not connected, missed the train, no reason to tie the hands to the shoulder because its not doing anything. You can only rotate so far before the torso has to move the shoulders, thats where she tries to get on board, but its too late, too close to where the hands need to be getting off the train.

I admit to a hand phobia, other than having the right grip they just dont do much so why mess with them. I've spent some time comparing the bat drag clip to Tyson, trying to see what the kid would have to do to look more like Tyson. Seems to me like the feel she is missing is the power transfer from the core into the upper body. I can actually see how telling the kid to do something different with the hands might help. Do you have some specific hand activation or barrel path drill?

Sometime before next summer I plan to show a kid the deltoid drill. She is 11, played for two years, definitely has an arm swing. She swings too much with the arms so the last thing I want her to think about is the hands, thats makes sense to me.

 

[softballphreak]

What I see with the batter above in the yellow jersey is, once again, no hip turn, no hip lead. She is attempting to swing the bat across her chest instead of leading with the hips and therefore helping to clear the frontal area for the bat to pass through.

Trying to swing across her unturned chest is significantly contributing to bat drag.

Have her exaggerate the hip lead, tell her to keep the top elbow slightly behind her hip as her elbow slots. The bat drag shouldn't be able to happen then.

Jut about every time I see bat drag I see no initial hip action.

 

[rocker]

I don't know if this is the best place to post or ask this question, but I recently attended a seminar put on by the Doyle Academy, and the emphasis was with the hands leading the swing. According to the instructor, the hands are the first thing to move. Everything I read on this site does not promote this, correct? So I have 3 questions:

1. Am I correct that the hands should not lead the swing?
2. What happens when the hands do lead the swing?
3. When our team faces this coach this spring, and they all throw their hands first at the ball, how should our pitchers approach this? (I ask this from the comment on Mr. O'leary's "my experience with Andres Torres" article. Do we pitch them inside?
Another part of the problem was that, unlike Ichiro, Andres couldn't pull the inside pitch for power. This was due in large part to his trying to throw his hands at the ball and a resulting problem with disconnection. As a result, pitchers were able to bust him inside and he was unable to handle that pitch well.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I don't know if this is the best place to post or ask this question, but I recently attended a seminar put on by the Doyle Academy, and the emphasis was with the hands leading the swing. According to the instructor, the hands are the first thing to move. Everything I read on this site does not promote this, correct? So I have 3 questions:

1. Am I correct that the hands should not lead the swing?
2. What happens when the hands do lead the swing?
3. When our team faces this coach this spring, and they all throw their hands first at the ball, how should our pitchers approach this? (I ask this from the comment on Mr. O'leary's "my experience with Andres Torres" article. Do we pitch them inside?
Another part of the problem was that, unlike Ichiro, Andres couldn't pull the inside pitch for power. This was due in large part to his trying to throw his hands at the ball and a resulting problem with disconnection. As a result, pitchers were able to bust him inside and he was unable to handle that pitch well.

What I teach is based on what I see in clips like these...

What I see in these clips is the hands rotating with, but ahead of, the back shoulder (aka connection), and pretty much in lock step, for the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the swing. Depending on the speed and location of the pitch, the hands may get ahead of the back shoulder toward the end of the swing in order to adjust for a slower pitch or a pitch inside.

With respect to your questions...

1. The hands do lead the swing, but they are brought around by the back shoulder. They do not get ahead of the back shoulder except perhaps at the very end of the swing.
2. It depends on what you mean.
3. Change speeds on them.

P.S. And of course the hips pull the shoulders, and thus the hands, around.

 

[softballphreak]

I don't know if this is the best place to post or ask this question, but I recently attended a seminar put on by the Doyle Academy, and the emphasis was with the hands leading the swing. According to the instructor, the hands are the first thing to move. Everything I read on this site does not promote this, correct? So I have 3 questions:

1. Am I correct that the hands should not lead the swing?
2. What happens when the hands do lead the swing?
3. When our team faces this coach this spring, and they all throw their hands first at the ball, how should our pitchers approach this? (I ask this from the comment on Mr. O'leary's "my experience with Andres Torres" article. Do we pitch them inside?
Another part of the problem was that, unlike Ichiro, Andres couldn't pull the inside pitch for power. This was due in large part to his trying to throw his hands at the ball and a resulting problem with disconnection. As a result, pitchers were able to bust him inside and he was unable to handle that pitch well.

1. The swing is from the ground up. In that sequence, the hips come before the hands. Have your player swing with an exaggerated emphasis on hands first and then have them swing with the emphasis on hips first. You will see and they will feel the difference. In a game swing it will be hard to see the difference because everything is firing so close in order. But the batter will feel the difference.

2. If the batter leads with the hands first they must commit earlier. Plus they will be swinging around their chest instead of clearing it (so to say) for the swing path.

3. Therefore anything that messes with that early commitment will work. For example, inside fast to setup inside offspeed or outside offspeed. Many different ways.