Why Do Hips Follow Hands?

[GunnerShotgun]

My 12U DD went to a substitute PC last night who was a D1 pitcher. The PC said she looked great but needed to work on keeping her hips open and not close them so fast (hips should follow hands). I have told her this repeatedly, have bought her the perfect circle training aide and she also does wall drills to try and correct.

On the way home she asked, "Why do the hips go first in batting but not in pitching?". I could explain the batting side of it and on the pitching side I mumbled something about keeping a tight circle and not throwing around the hips. But I couldn't give her a concrete answer.

The D1 pitcher said she had the same problem and didn't correct it until her final year in college. So I wonder how big of a deal this is.

She doesn't have accuracy or speed issues and when she does stay open she is slower and less accurate. Is this one of those, "she will be better in the long term if you fix it now" issues?

Thoughts?

 

[Carly]

I'm not a hitting coach, but I think it's actually the same. In hitting, as the hips are coming into it, the hands are also preparing to enter the hitting zone (but not the bat head... it's still lagging), and at this point both movements are linear—forward toward the pitcher. The hips don't do the majority of their rotation until the hands have been given room to enter the hitting zone. Then they start to rotate, followed by the wrists turning over, then bat head coming through, then contact, like the progression of a whip (someone please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Pitching is the same. The hips have linear involvement as the foot begins to drive through until the pitching arm is allowed to enter the throw zone. Once the arm is clear, they rotate as the lagging forearm (like the bat head) finishes whipping through just after.

The stride foot landing in pitching and the front foot stepping in hitting are analogous. After contact with the ground, the hip juts forward a bit as you create hard resistance with that leg from the foot all the way up the front side of the body. The energy of that resistance travels to the back half and initiates the whipping motion of the rest of the elements coming through.

In both cases if the hips rotate too soon you're in trouble.

 

[Ken B]

I try not to think of the hips other than just setting up the optimal condition for the arm to do it's work. The action of the hips at release does not add to the pitch. If everthing is done correctly and in sequence, the hips will be about 1/2 way open/closed at release. Depending on how the drag foot finishes or where the stride foot plants relative to the power line, the hips may square after release. It should not be a forced condition. For me, "hands follow the hips" is a non-teach other than in explaining how things look in sequence.

 

[Ken B]

She doesn't have accuracy or speed issues and when she does stay open she is slower and less accurate. Is this one of those, "she will be better in the long term if you fix it now" issues?
Thoughts?

It may help to clarify what is open/closed for her. Posting video would be helpful, especially if you can show both her open and closed pitches.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

Batting: Hips rotate from open to slightly closed before the hands jump on the train. (Hips go first, hands follow).

Pitching: Hips open as the arm circles past the thigh on release. (hand/arm goes first, hips follow).

I guess I don't understand why in pitching the hips follow the arm. In hitting it makes perfect sense.

Injury Prevention?
Large Hips in the Future?
Can't throw breaking pitches effectively?
Old wives tale?
Faster pitching in the long run?

 

[Amy in AZ.]

To go around the hips, she will eventually have to take the ball out and away from the power line. When we are in the open or K position, the ball goes around in one plane. To go around the hips we would have to alter that plane.

She actually does not have to close her hips at all to pitch. She can stay open, release the ball and field the ball.

 

[LeftiesDad]

I have had these same thoughts and did some digging. I see the hips leading the hands in these. Not completely closed just to 45 degrees or so.

Amanda Scarborough
Girls Softball Fastpitch Softball Training Aid - Softball Power Drive

Yukiko Ueno
Japanese Softball - YouTube about 17 seconds into video

Monica Abbot About 33 seconds
Monica Abbott Breaks Pineapple Off Batter's Head!!!!! - YouTube


This is supported by the Steadman Hawkins Report created a few years back. Which states "Finally, and possibly the most important factor in reducing shoulder distraction force, the hips should be closed at about a 45 degree angle (half way between completely open and completely closed) at the instant of ball release. Pitchers who tend to keep the hips open at ball release put a tremendous amount of stress on the throwing shoulder."

This report is coming up on 20 years old but I have not seen any that refuted the claims. I would be interested in reading any that do.

 

[sluggers]

As Amy points out, most women's hips are wider than their shoulders. So, if the hips close, the arm has to arc around the hips during the pitch, making control almost impossible.

A 12YOA girl isn't going to have this problem. In fact, the easiest way to teach a 12YOA girl to throw hard is have them close their hips early. Of course, as soon as her body matures, she won't be able to hit the backstop from 10 feet.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

I agree that we need updated studies on the shoulder, because what I feel when pitching open, is nothing. I don't shove the shoulder or contract the shoulder blades or tense the shoulder or lift it up high.

Twenty years ago, I was teaching open the door and slam the door. I imagine that the women that are now out of college were taught that way. They then developed something that worked for them, despite what they were being taught.

One method does not fit all. It depends a lot on the student herself. I bet that 19 out of 20 of my students fall into the same category of open pitchers.

If we take a young lady like Osterman, that for many years had very little hip mass, we have a different discussion.

 

[GunnerShotgun]

To go around the hips, she will eventually have to take the ball out and away from the power line. When we are in the open or K position, the ball goes around in one plane. To go around the hips we would have to alter that plane.

She actually does not have to close her hips at all to pitch. She can stay open, release the ball and field the ball.

Thanks for your reply. I guess as an ex baseball player I am trying to understand why you wouldn't want to utilize your hips (as baseball pitchers do). I understand the unique differences of overhand and underhand pitching however I would say at this age she has small hips (no hips, very small) and it would seem to me you would get more power if you closed the the hips or closed them slightly (45 degrees as others have mentioned).

Perhaps you have the right answer in that deviating from the perfect circle decreases efficiency and velocity. At this point it would seem that she is getting additional velocity from closing the hips while the arm is coming down at release. Perhaps in the long run this would lead to injuries. This is what i am trying to understand.

This isn't specific to my DD, I see it at all ages...

I am just trying to learn.

Thanks,