When is it time to give up?

[kibadbo]

Thanks for everyone's input. I read and thought through every comment. The consensus is that she should quit when she's damn good and ready. So onward we go.

To address some of the comments: she is definitely an overthinker, it is the first thing every new coach notices. She always tries to be perfect. That's why I stopped taking video of her, she'd obsess with every detail. I signed her up with a mental coach (hooray, more money!) but it is too early to see much from that.

The muscle imbalances comment was also on the mark. She's always been sort of "muscle-bound." It wasn't long ago that she couldn't extend both her arms straight over her head. Her bicep also can get so stiff that she can't fully extend her arm. She's been adding some stretches to her workouts that seem to be helping. She probably throws around 500 pitches a week, which I don't think is terrible. But there is also overhand work, hitting, lifting etc. and I worry about overuse. But then I also worry that practicing less is just going to make accuracy that much harder to fix.

There is another aspect that I wonder if anyone else has seen before, because I've never heard anyone talk about it. It is as if practice makes her worse. The best way I can explain it is she will be practicing and after a while, she might start missing in one direction. She'll try to adjust, but sometimes the adjustment makes things worse. So she tries another adjustment etc until she can't do a damn thing. It's like she unintentionally ruins her mechanics with 1000 tiny cuts.

I think I will try to post some video soon and see what you guys think. Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[Tazman]

Thanks for everyone's input. I read and thought through every comment. The consensus is that she should quit when she's damn good and ready. So onward we go.

To address some of the comments: she is definitely an overthinker, it is the first thing every new coach notices. She always tries to be perfect. That's why I stopped taking video of her, she'd obsess with every detail. I signed her up with a mental coach (hooray, more money!) but it is too early to see much from that.

The muscle imbalances comment was also on the mark. She's always been sort of "muscle-bound." It wasn't long ago that she couldn't extend both her arms straight over her head. Her bicep also can get so stiff that she can't fully extend her arm. She's been adding some stretches to her workouts that seem to be helping. She probably throws around 500 pitches a week, which I don't think is terrible. But there is also overhand work, hitting, lifting etc. and I worry about overuse. But then I also worry that practicing less is just going to make accuracy that much harder to fix.

There is another aspect that I wonder if anyone else has seen before, because I've never heard anyone talk about it. It is as if practice makes her worse. The best way I can explain it is she will be practicing and after a while, she might start missing in one direction. She'll try to adjust, but sometimes the adjustment makes things worse. So she tries another adjustment etc until she can't do a damn thing. It's like she unintentionally ruins her mechanics with 1000 tiny cuts.

I think I will try to post some video soon and see what you guys think. Thanks again for all the advice.

Getting worse with the adjustments is the classic symptom of an overthinker...I've seen this before with one of my daughters and the number one thing that is going to help your daughter is finding ways to keep her loose and pitching by feel rather than by thinking. And when you figure that out, let me know your secret ?

 

[jfitch12]

I think I will try to post some video soon and see what you guys think. Thanks again for all the advice.

Video would really help. She is definitely throwing enough, and you might even back it down by 10 percent, especially when she has a bout of being totally out of synch, which is a good time just to stop for the day. You’ll get lots of feedback on her mechanics from a video, which may be helpful as you work with a newish coach. Does she have what folks on this board refer to as “brush interference”? Brush, in my view, is associated with a lot of desirable mechanics that make it easier to throw strikes.


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[CoachCeetar]

To address some of the comments: she is definitely an overthinker, it is the first thing every new coach notices. She always tries to be perfect. That's why I stopped taking video of her, she'd obsess with every detail. I signed her up with a mental coach (hooray, more money!) but it is too early to see much from that.

I'm not saying this with any real understanding of it, but it's a thought I've had in general when people talk about mental coaches and I think it might be worth thinking about. Maybe I'm just overly skeptical that some of these confidence coach type people seem like a bunch of snake oil salespeople.

Might she be better off with a mental health professional that's NOT a sports person? This feels like a softball solution to a problem that might not be a softball 'problem'. I imagine there's some similarity and overlap between a straight psychologist and a mental coach, but that "She always tries to perfect" sounds like it goes deeper than just pitching circle mindset that can be trained out.

Getting worse with the adjustments is the classic symptom of an overthinker...I've seen this before with one of my daughters and the number one thing that is going to help your daughter is finding ways to keep her loose and pitching by feel rather than by thinking. And when you figure that out, let me know your secret ?

Yeah, this makes sense to me too. (my overthinking was spending the past year here, elsewhere learning stuff once my 9 year old started seriously liking softball) You're constantly correcting and overcorrecting and double-checking and such.

And on that note, you mention she made changes a few months ago with the new PC. All you might need to do is trust that process. Sometimes doing nothing is actually the right thing to do.

 

[Mike-Coach-Q]

I had a student that had the roughest of starts but never quit or gave up and won in the end. During HS she would have ups and downs. She would struggle so bad , mom would tell her to quit pitching and play another position but she never gave up. In college she ended up being one of the best in her conference.
She’ll know when it’s time to quit

 

[CoachJD]

Getting worse with the adjustments is the classic symptom of an overthinker...I've seen this before with one of my daughters and the number one thing that is going to help your daughter is finding ways to keep her loose and pitching by feel rather than by thinking. And when you figure that out, let me know your secret ?

Have her pitch with her eyes closed. Obviously, you know, not in a game.

 

[CoachJD]

There is another aspect that I wonder if anyone else has seen before, because I've never heard anyone talk about it. It is as if practice makes her worse. The best way I can explain it is she will be practicing and after a while, she might start missing in one direction. She'll try to adjust, but sometimes the adjustment makes things worse. So she tries another adjustment etc until she can't do a damn thing. It's like she unintentionally ruins her mechanics with 1000 tiny cuts.

A couple things could be happening here.

If she's getting tired, or if even part of her body is getting tired, her mechanics are likely slipping. At that point, you should just stop for the day. Or move on to a different skill (hitting, etc.).

She could be reinforcing flawed mechanics throughout the practice. Practice doesn't make perfect. It makes permanent. So if she spent 20 minutes doing something wrong, she could be ingraining that wrongness. In a way, she might be getting better at doing the wrong thing.

 

[Strike2]

I know of a just-retired college pitcher who spent her last couple of years not being able to find the strike zone. It wasn't always true...she got to D1 ball somehow...and I've got to hand it to her for trying and the coaches for trying to fix her. The thing is that the player is a gifted athlete...a rare mix of tall and fast. She was sometimes put in as a pinch-runner and could rope line-drive HRs off front-toss. I thought for a long time that she could have contributed as an OF or 1B. She stuck with the pitching and sat while occasionally getting an inning of garbage time. Most long-time players have pitched at some point...my kid included. If it was easy, everyone could and would do it. There is a point where a decision needs to be made, especially if the player has the ability to make a significant contribution elsewhere. Blindly sticking with something you're not good at doesn't pay off for most.

 

[kibadbo]

Have her pitch with her eyes closed. Obviously, you know, not in a game.

I'm not sure her accuracy could have been much worse if she did close her eyes.

 

[kibadbo]

I'm not saying this with any real understanding of it, but it's a thought I've had in general when people talk about mental coaches and I think it might be worth thinking about. Maybe I'm just overly skeptical that some of these confidence coach type people seem like a bunch of snake oil salespeople.

Might she be better off with a mental health professional that's NOT a sports person? This feels like a softball solution to a problem that might not be a softball 'problem'. I imagine there's some similarity and overlap between a straight psychologist and a mental coach, but that "She always tries to perfect" sounds like it goes deeper than just pitching circle mindset that can be trained out.



Yeah, this makes sense to me too. (my overthinking was spending the past year here, elsewhere learning stuff once my 9 year old started seriously liking softball) You're constantly correcting and overcorrecting and double-checking and such.

And on that note, you mention she made changes a few months ago with the new PC. All you might need to do is trust that process. Sometimes doing nothing is actually the right thing to do.

Yeah the confidence coach was an experiment. She has a friend who is committed to a P5 that swears by the coach. It's not perfect, but we've found having someone to talk to that has been through what she is dealing with has helped. But you are right, her perfectionism causes problems in all aspects of her life.