Umpire in way of DP throw attempt from 2nd to 1st

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Jan 22, 2011
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NFHS game to determine 2nd place in the league.

What should of my middle infielder done? R1 on 1st, ball hit to middle infielder. We get the out at 2nd, MI winds up throw to 1st for DP, umpire is standing in line between 1st and 2nd, watching the BR headed to 1st. She eats the ball, BR safe.

Is the call umpire is part of the field, our player did the right thing? I never would tell a player to throw hard at a person on the field, but I have told catchers to softly toss the ball at the body of the batter in her way of her throw (never the head) on a play at home if the batter is in her way. Should MI tried to step outside to avoid umpire?

It was a close game that we lost because of at least 4 mistakes, so it's our fault. Just a little frustrating we lost two outs because of umpires out of position.

2nd time runner R3 at 3rd, grounder hit to F5. F5 glances at R3 to freeze her, R3 is way off base and starts heading back to third. F5 dives at R3 and tags her in the leg before she touches 3B on a dive. BU had anticipated throw to 1B and is confused when ball isn't thrown, so turns around and sees play as R3 touches 3B. Calls runner safe. After our coach asks the BU to ask PU if he had a better view of the play, the BU after talking PU, says neither of them had a clear view of the play, runner safe.

Understand if umpires don't see something they can't call it. I'm also grateful we had a BU that got most calls right, but as I am a USA rec umpire it was frustrating seeing the FU regularly out of position.
 
Last edited:
Aug 27, 2019
640
93
Lakewood CA.
I would file this under..
Rec game, ump made a positioning mistake, no big deal, move on.

Literally nothing could be done about it.

Probably not the last time something like this will happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,610
113
I would file this under..
Rec game, ump made a positioning mistake, no big deal, move on.

Literally nothing could be done about it.

Probably not the last time something like this will happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Corrected post. It was a HS game for 2nd place in the league. I'm the rec umpire (for now- planning to do some HS games in 2024 after DD graduates HS). Luckily 1st-3rd place in league get automatic bid to CIF Central Coast Section play-offs.
 
Aug 25, 2019
1,066
113
The first play if your fielder hit the umpire the ball would still be live, so good play by your fielder, bad on umpire. As for the second play, I've done that before, in the C position with a runner on third two outs, SS gets the ball, I'm moving towards first when she throws it to third, I didn't see the play but luckily the plate umpire did, runner was safe.
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,610
113
NFHS game to determine 2nd place in the league.

2nd time runner R3 at 3rd, grounder hit to F5. F5 glances at R3 to freeze her, R3 is way off base and starts heading back to third. F5 dives at R3 and tags her in the leg before she touches 3B on a dive. BU had anticipated throw to 1B and is confused when ball isn't thrown, so turns around and sees play as R3 touches 3B. Calls runner safe. After our coach asks the BU to ask PU if he had a better view of the play, the BU after talking PU, says neither of them had a clear view of the play, runner safe.

Understand if umpires don't see something they can't call it. I'm also grateful we had a BU that got most calls right, but as I am a USA rec umpire it was frustrating seeing the FU regularly out of position.
I finally had a chance to re-watch the video. Play was more complex than I remembered and BU was where I likely would of been in that situation as a BU. Frame-by-frame, the player diving back to 3rd beat the tag by 1 or 2 frames. Frame-by-frame, BU glanced at his partner for help, PU saw the play, subtlety indicated safe with hands at waist, flicking his wrists to the side. BU signaled safe. Full speed, looks like neither blue saw the play.

As I always tell others, umpires get more calls right than we give credit for, they pretty consistently give the same call based upon the information they have. I see at least 1 play a game from the 1B dugout the runner is out at first by less than half a step, but in a 2 umpire system when BU is in C position she is safe.

Wish me luck! Doing a 12u game by myself tonight.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Digging through some old threads because I am winter-bored ... (well, there is volleyball).

Tips for umpires ...

Taking the second play first ... do NOT stare at something in anticipation. When the ball is in play, watch the PLAY. Some trainers say watch the BALL, but I would caution against that as you should not always be watching the ball itself. You need to watch touches of bases and for obstruction calls. What I am saying is do not set your eyes on something (such as first base) in anticipation of a play. Track the play and move your head with it. This play is a great example of why.

Now, the OP question ...

Umpire interference is something that is very specifically defined in the rulebook: the umpire interferes with a catcher attempting to throw out a runner (stealing or pick off) or is hit by a fair, batted ball before it passes a fielder and a fielder can make a play. Outside of those situations, an umpire is just part of the field. There was a significant play in a D2 post-season college baseball game where a baserunner collided with an umpire and ended up being tagged out. It had an impact on the game, but, by rule, there was nothing to correct. At least, not for the umpires to correct. The rules committee may want to take a look at it.

Tip for an umpire ... what are you doing that you would end up in the firing line of F4 or F5 throwing to first base? Do not strictly line up your B-position based on the fielder. I know this is taught (I was taught to set up 6-8 feet off the fielder's inside shoulder), but you MUST consider where the fielder is playing. If the fielder is playing in, DO NOT set up in between the bases. You should ALWAYS be set up outside of the infield in softball.
 
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
There was a significant play in a D2 post-season college baseball game where a baserunner collided with an umpire and ended up being tagged out. It had an impact on the game, but, by rule, there was nothing to correct. At least, not for the umpires to correct. The rules committee may want to take a look at it.

Isn't there something where if an umpire does something that unfairly affects one team, they can correct it? If, for example, the umpire is grossly out of position, does he have any recourse to fix his mistake? Is this different than fixing a mistake on a call?

If an ump gets hit by an overthrown ball or something, hey it happens. If a wild pitch hits the ump's shinguard and caroms 50 feet down the line, too bad. But if an umpire wanders into the basepath, that just seems like a correctable error. (Note: Should add that I'm not saying that's what occurred in the D2 game. I didn't see it and don't know if the umpire was actually at fault here.)
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Isn't there something where if an umpire does something that unfairly affects one team, they can correct it? If, for example, the umpire is grossly out of position, does he have any recourse to fix his mistake? Is this different than fixing a mistake on a call?

If an ump gets hit by an overthrown ball or something, hey it happens. If a wild pitch hits the ump's shinguard and caroms 50 feet down the line, too bad. But if an umpire wanders into the basepath, that just seems like a correctable error. (Note: Should add that I'm not saying that's what occurred in the D2 game. I didn't see it and don't know if the umpire was actually at fault here.)

Short answer: No.

Long answer: No.

It is not the same thing as correcting a call. The umpire, other than those specifically spelled out occasions, is part of the field.

If you are curious about the play I mentioned ...

 
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
Short answer: No.

Long answer: No.

It is not the same thing as correcting a call. The umpire, other than those specifically spelled out occasions, is part of the field.

If you are curious about the play I mentioned ...



I'm not arguing the rules, but this is a travesty. The umpire ran directly into him for no apparent reason. There should be recourse to fix it when the umpire does something so unacceptably egregious and hurts a team like this. This is not like an errant throw hitting him or a catcher getting tangled up. He literally ran directly into the base runner. I can't think of a single reason why the umpire should be running forward into the runner's path in that moment. It seems impossible he did this on purpose, but it seems equally impossible he'd just be sprinting forward like that for some legitimate purpose (after all, this is a one in a hundred million occurrence, so if it was reasonable, we'd see this stuff all the time).

This is "doctor amputates the wrong arm" bad. It's worse than a hundred blown ball/strike calls. I wouldn't trust the legitimacy of any game that guy worked of mine ever again if I'm that team.

This does seem like an easy thing to make correctable. Language like "If the direct act of an umpire blah blah blah." I think of it like the ball hitting the bat vs the bat hitting the ball difference. If something happens to the umpire, play on. If the umpire does something, it can be corrected.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
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While he may not have done a good job of doing it, the U1 in that video was doing exactly what he should have been doing. It was a three-umpire system with R2 and R3. U3 would be on the third base line and U1 would be on the first base line. With a hit to left field, U1 was button-hooking inside to be in position for a potential play at second base.

In a two-umpire system, which is what most of us here see most of the time, U1 would not have been on the line. Depending on the mechanics for the given organization, he would be in the "B" or "C" position. In "big" baseball that would be inside the diamond (virtually already in position for a play at second). In softball and "little" baseball that would be behind the infielders, which would still necessitate a button-hook inside.

I would say the mistake the umpire made was not watching the runner while he button-hooking. He did a good job by not watching the ball, but he should have been checking the runner (and watching for the touch at first base). He does appear to put his head down and start to hustle.

As I get a little older and a little slower, that button hook inside from the first base line gets a little more daunting each year. I try not to let the runner go first (because then you are chasing the play to second base), but I also recognize there are times when that will happen.

As for "fixing that" ... like I said, that is a fix the rules committee for your alphabet would have to take up. I am not disagreeing with you conceptually.
 

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