The Wrist

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Sep 30, 2013
148
28
Northwest, IN
WOW..... This is me.

My Daughter been doing Tincher for a few years now and all we heard is "WE DONT DO WRIST SNAPS"
We look at everything trying to get more MPH and just recently after slo mo video, it seems to me like she never mastered the "Release"

It's Still a Wrist snap!!!!!! She's been pushing the ball and coming away from her body trying to get her MPH - had shoulder pain last offseason and now I'm trying to fix this in season and fast.

I'm frustrated with the whole "we don't do snaps" Propaganda and I think it really hurt us.
Tincher is very much into the long and "Fluid" release. IMO this causes way to much forward effort, and then the wrist now has to have some action on it. I am 100 percent in agreement with Balswick. Minimize forward effort, so the arm can do what it is supposed to do without too much or any forward effort. If you look at when brush occurs and the ball is triggered from the hand, everything is stacked, and shoulder and hip are above each other. If you're trying to be long and fluid, you're going to get some forward effort leading to pushing the ball, as as a little less consistent than they could be.
 
Nov 17, 2017
62
18
Tincher is very much into the long and "Fluid" release. IMO this causes way to much forward effort, and then the wrist now has to have some action on it. I am 100 percent in agreement with Balswick. Minimize forward effort, so the arm can do what it is supposed to do without too much or any forward effort. If you look at when brush occurs and the ball is triggered from the hand, everything is stacked, and shoulder and hip are above each other. If you're trying to be long and fluid, you're going to get some forward effort leading to pushing the ball, as as a little less consistent than they could be.

We were also taught no Brush..... Uggghhhh.

Very frustrated and so is she.

These things should have been what you work on in 1st 6 months let alone 4 years.

As a Dad, I obviously never got it and/or never did enough slow mo or knew what to look for.

She's had decent success and now looking back at her success I give her credit for working, building and doing a lot of things with great form, the question was always "Where is the speed" and I chalked it up to being 90lbs and thin - She's bigger now tho. She's muscling the ball with her shoulder..

IMO not I think ALL her speed is lost in the finish and a program we do like Tincher to "Avoid injuries" has become a negative....

On the plus side I see a Doorway where I think she can pop considerable speed over this winter by focusing on release and SNAP!!!!!!!!
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,031
113
ELBOW ELBOW ELBOW!!!! If you are whipping your elbow, the wrist and fingers will follow naturally in the kinetic chain. The #1 issue with wrist flips is it isolates the wrist (usually with a locked elbow) and it reinforces muscle memory that isn't what we actually want when pitching.

In many many cases, the pitchers who do the wrist flips teach themselves to lock their elbow and keep the arm stiff. The overwhelming majority of pitchers who pitch like this get very sore in their shoulder, even girls as young as 12 get sore from pitching!! No 12 year old should be sore from pitching. There's no excuse for that.

But if you teach a pitcher to use their elbow, similar to skipping a stone across a pond, the wrist and the fingers will follow the whip of the elbow. Of course the wrist is a part of the pitching motion and needs to "snap" at the release but, it's only one element of the arm that has to snap. The wrist needs to follow the snap of the elbow, and the fingers then follow the wrist.

If you look on YouTube, I know there's videos on there of clinics and speaking engagements that I've done where I talk about this issue. Pitching softball is somewhat similar to pitching baseball, especially in terms of how the arm needs to whip. Yet, nobody ever sees a baseball pitcher warm up with their arm locked up above their head and doing a "wrist snap" overhand. When I say this, and demonstrate it at clinics with my arm straight up in the air, elbow locked and act like I'm doing an overhand wrist flips... people usually laugh at that and think it's funny. But it's the same thing!! As ridiculous as that is for a baseball pitcher to do "overhand wrist flips" with their elbow locked above the head, it's equally ridiculous for a softball pitcher to do it with the elbow locked below the waist doing them too. Why don't baseball pitchers do this? Answer: because that's not how we throw a ball overhand, we don't lock the elbow and only use the wrist. And it shouldn't be how softball pitchers do it either.
 
Nov 18, 2015
1,420
113
It's Still a Wrist snap!!!!!! She's been pushing the ball and coming away from her body trying to get her MPH - had shoulder pain last offseason and now I'm trying to fix this in season and fast.
What kind of spin does she get on her throws? (e.g. a fastball).

Just watched a Rich Balswick video that is one of the best for sure and he talks about the wrist and fingers being behind forearm that a lot of girls miss when they switch to IR, IMO.
I see a lot of girls end up with bullet spin, and I think in part it's from girls trying to avoid brush, getting their hips out of the way, and therefore getting their hands too far inside the ball through release. I'm wondering if this is related to the inability to get more ball-to-elbow lag Balswick was referring to.

re: snap vs. whip - I've always liked the term "fling". Snap is usually perceived as a forced motion. I'll use "fling" sometimes when I'm trying to convey that what happens to the ball shouldn't necessarily be a conscious thought. Focus on the motion / speed of the arm, and the release / pitch itself can almost be seen as a byproduct - the ball get's flung off towards home b/c it happened to be at the end of your arm.

But of course - whip is good too - whatever helps get the point across.
 
Jan 25, 2022
395
63
Very frustrated and so is she.

If I could make a suggestion...

I feel like you're going through what I went through (although for much longer). When my daughter started lessons in early 2021, I watched intently and asked questions, then did my best to apply things between visits. As time went by I was learning more, but realized that the style she was being taught (not whip or HE) wasn't something that could be found on youtube. We rarely missed a lesson so I had probably 70 hours of live observation and interaction JUST at lessons, when I decided I needed more knowledge.

I dug around and eventually decided to take Rick Pauly's High Performance Pitching intermediate course. It's thorough and intensive, and by the time I finished I felt like I had a much, much better grasp of proper mechanics. And once I spent a few hours with her and another player I'm helping, the basics really fell into place. I also watch videos every freakin day, learning to spot mechanical flaws in random kids on youtube. Even the higher level ones usually have things that need corrected.

I took a lot of slo mo at her lessons and was pretty blown away by what I saw. Some non-pitching related things had come up in our life that were making attending lessons more difficult as well, so after several weeks of stressful consideration I decided the time was right to end her lessons and take over. She's already improving, and I'm making plans to get us headed the right direction going forward.

I certainly dont think I can just shoot her to the moon completely on my own. I need to learn to teach location and spins, and ways to correct some things I see, but taking Rick's course was the best thing I could ever have done. Now I can help any of our kids who can't take lessons.

I HIGHLY recommend doing his program, even if you only use it to help you assess potential new coaches and analyze so mo on your own. It'll cost you a few $$ but I've found it's worth every penny. If your coach is priced like mine, you're probably already 8k into it. This course is far, far less.

He also provides EXCELLENT support after the fact. A private facebook group, free webinars, and he's just generally very accessible. I can't recommend it enough.
 
Nov 17, 2017
62
18
If I could make a suggestion...

I feel like you're going through what I went through (although for much longer). When my daughter started lessons in early 2021, I watched intently and asked questions, then did my best to apply things between visits. As time went by I was learning more, but realized that the style she was being taught (not whip or HE) wasn't something that could be found on youtube. We rarely missed a lesson so I had probably 70 hours of live observation and interaction JUST at lessons, when I decided I needed more knowledge.

I dug around and eventually decided to take Rick Pauly's High Performance Pitching intermediate course. It's thorough and intensive, and by the time I finished I felt like I had a much, much better grasp of proper mechanics. And once I spent a few hours with her and another player I'm helping, the basics really fell into place. I also watch videos every freakin day, learning to spot mechanical flaws in random kids on youtube. Even the higher level ones usually have things that need corrected.

I took a lot of slo mo at her lessons and was pretty blown away by what I saw. Some non-pitching related things had come up in our life that were making attending lessons more difficult as well, so after several weeks of stressful consideration I decided the time was right to end her lessons and take over. She's already improving, and I'm making plans to get us headed the right direction going forward.

I certainly dont think I can just shoot her to the moon completely on my own. I need to learn to teach location and spins, and ways to correct some things I see, but taking Rick's course was the best thing I could ever have done. Now I can help any of our kids who can't take lessons.

I HIGHLY recommend doing his program, even if you only use it to help you assess potential new coaches and analyze so mo on your own. It'll cost you a few $$ but I've found it's worth every penny. If your coach is priced like mine, you're probably already 8k into it. This course is far, far less.

He also provides EXCELLENT support after the fact. A private facebook group, free webinars, and he's just generally very accessible. I can't recommend it enough.

Thank You!!
I'll look into that - I'm also a video junkie - we work with a Physical trainer who is also certified pitching and does a better job explaining and seeing weakness - She had a great session last night focusing on whip and elbow circles.

It was a good week... And yeah, the Slo Mo is KEY.... She looks pretty good and has grown in all other aspects - So, there is some satisfaction in at least keying in on what i see as THE issue by far and attack this release..

I feel like we're about to unlock a new doorway lol.

My plan is to finish out this Fall season (just another month) skip actual lessons and focus on the WHIP - save the money and time at lessons and concentrate on this.... Then hit Winter and break it all down again.
 
Jan 25, 2022
395
63
Thank You!!
I'll look into that - I'm also a video junkie - we work with a Physical trainer who is also certified pitching and does a better job explaining and seeing weakness - She had a great session last night focusing on whip and elbow circles.

It was a good week... And yeah, the Slo Mo is KEY.... She looks pretty good and has grown in all other aspects - So, there is some satisfaction in at least keying in on what i see as THE issue by far and attack this release..

I feel like we're about to unlock a new doorway lol.

My plan is to finish out this Fall season (just another month) skip actual lessons and focus on the WHIP - save the money and time at lessons and concentrate on this.... Then hit Winter and break it all down again.

You're quite welcome. I think his course will have a major effect going forward, although I'll have to take more of his courses to learn spins and placement. Right now we're trying to fix basic glaws and establish consistency.

I wish I had started using slo mo a year ago. I'm actually leaving in a few minutes to take her to one of Rick's top guys who lives a few hours from here. He's gonna do a full movement assessment, 4D motion capture, and give us a plan to help her correct imbalances, weakness, etc. She has hypermobility in the shoulders and elbows, and had contortionist level hip socket mobility when she was little. The after effects of the hip thing can cause knee pain and I think she's a touch knock-kneed.

The ortho said it should sort itself out after she stops growing in height, which should be soon. I've read knock knees in a pitcher can result in ligament damage/tears on the plant leg. I think she also has scapula and core weakness or imbalance. I love data, so I think this will be very beneficial.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,031
113
Thank You!!
I'll look into that - I'm also a video junkie - we work with a Physical trainer who is also certified pitching and does a better job explaining and seeing weakness - She had a great session last night focusing on whip and elbow circles.
reaper, what does "certified pitching" mean in your statement? Lets not forget, the late Ernie Parker, who had oodles of VHS pitching tapes, also had a certification program. And the majority of his instruction was hello elbow. I even knew men who were actual pitchers who became "certified" by him because people believed he was a pitching guru and his name carried weight... even though it was hello elbow and those guys didn't pitch like that (and I doubt they taught it either).
 
Nov 17, 2017
62
18
reaper, what does "certified pitching" mean in your statement? Lets not forget, the late Ernie Parker, who had oodles of VHS pitching tapes, also had a certification program. And the majority of his instruction was hello elbow. I even knew men who were actual pitchers who became "certified" by him because people believed he was a pitching guru and his name carried weight... even though it was hello elbow and those guys didn't pitch like that (and I doubt they taught it either).

Certified with Courtney Hudson out of Alabama... Mycoachology on Instagram. I didn't mean to make it like she was some Pitching guru my point was the trainer had SOME decent pitching base and knowledge NOT HE.

We did a Zoom with Courtney Monday night and it was eye opening.

Furthest thing from Hello Elbow - She studies Body Mechanics - And the trainer focuses on Strength, Core and Balance weakness geared toward pitching and those movements

She pointed out small issues to focus on Arm whip / Stride leg TIMING!!!, Getting that front leg down with Intent!!! and Hand/finger release which seemed too late.

Small issues but major Speed killers... and it helped on the spot and gave us a better plan of attack.

She's also certified with High Level Throwing/Pitching and worked with Wasserman who we took a clinic with.
 

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