The CWS shows bulletspin--rewriting the book on movement pitches

[sluggers]

This year, there is a super-slow motion camera at 1B. You can really see how the bullet spin pitches are thrown. I've not seen a backspin rise during the playoffs.

For a rise, the ball's axis of rotation appears to about 20 degrees from horizontal, resulting in the top seams being behind the ball and the bottom seams being exposed.

The bottom seam deflects the air down, thereby causing an upward force on the ball. Thus, the ball is pushed up.

Vawter was throwing a bullet spin changeup.

 

[PharmerBrown]

This year, there is a super-slow motion camera at 1B. You can really see how the bullet spin pitches are thrown. I've not seen a backspin rise during the playoffs.

For a rise, the ball's axis of rotation appears to about 20 degrees from horizontal, resulting in the top seams being behind the ball and the bottom seams being exposed.

The bottom seam deflects the air down, thereby causing an upward force on the ball. Thus, the ball is pushed up.

Vawter was throwing a bullet spin changeup.

Do you believe this is taught or the result of not being able to throw true spin pitches? I feel like every slow-mo pitch they show is bullet spin, yet I have yet to see anyone say that they teach this.

 

[sluggers]

Do you believe this is taught or the result of not being able to throw true spin pitches? I feel like every slow-mo pitch they show is bullet spin, yet I have yet to see anyone say that they teach this.

You're asking a real philosophical question.

First, the kid doesn't care if the ball has backspin, bulletspin or no spin as long as the ball jumps. Once the kid gets the ball to jump, she develops a feel for that motion and that's what she throws.

Breaking pitches are learned, but not taught. It's very much zen. (Read "Zen in the Art of Archery.") Throwing a breaking pitch without "telegraphing it" requires body control so precise and quick that it's impossible to teach.

So, learning a movement pitch is trial and error. When it comes to breaking pitchers, a good PC is a guide and not a teacher. The PC has a storehouse of suggestions and approaches to help a kid learn how to throw a breaking pitch. The PC offers encouragement and evaluation. It's really about the kid's athletic ability, discipline, and tenacity.


Back to your original question:

My guess is that the instructions for throwing a "cut" riseball results in the bulletspin riseball for a lot of kids.

 

[_MIA_]

Everything else being equal (eg velocity and spin rate) I wonder how much less (percentage-wise) down movement from the initial straight line trajectory a backspin rise has compared to a bullet-spin “pitch”…

 

[PharmerBrown]

Everything else being equal (eg velocity and spin rate) I wonder how much less (percentage-wise) down movement from the initial straight line trajectory a backspin rise has compared to a bullet-spin “pitch”…

That would be a great answer to have when you consider how much time some spend trying to correct a bullet into 6-12. We may find out that there's not a lot of value in doing that.

 

[Jeffrey]

That would be a great answer to have when you consider how much time some spend trying to correct a bullet into 6-12. We may find out that there's not a lot of value in doing that.

Java showed it years ago. He had a girl who could do 12-6, 6-2, and bullet all at the same speed and release angle, and when he overlayed it the difference is definitely there. I'm sure there's a MPH where it doesn't matter, but for the low 60s and under crowd it matters.

 

[ArmWhip]

I went to a D3 regional and watched most of the innings in 3 games. I had a great seat right behind home plate just to the right of umpire with a direct line from pitcher to plate. I saw 7 pitchers, 6 righties and 1 lefty. The fastest pitcher hit 60 mph 30% of the time, the slowest girl was 54 mph. The rest were somewhere in between. Two things stood out. The speed per pitcher was remarkably consistent and varied by only 1 mph (except for change ups). So a given pitcher might throw 57-58 mph. Second, with the exceptions of the slowest girl, who mixed in some top spin and the lefty who had a curve and a drop, everyone else seemed to be throwing nothing but bullet spin. At this level my explanation would be that these pitchers are throwing curves, screws and rises, or think they are, and don't know how the ball is spinning (or supposed to spin). It's also possible that some of them throw natural bullet spin fastballs.

I also went to South Carolina with a small D3 college for some spring games. We faced a pitcher with a decent amount of backspin. Her velocity maxed out at 53 mph. She no hit us, it took at least 2 at bats before we started to make contact. She threw that pitch 80% of the time. After the game their coach told us that she already had 3 no hitters.

 

[LEsoftballdad]

I watched Montana Fouts' last game last night. Lots of bullet spin on her pitches, but she was still effective. Then I flipped to the Yankee/Dodger game to watch Clayton Kershaw pitch. That man didn't throw one pitch with bullet spin, and his curve ball was filthy.

I guess the overhand throw just allows itself to so much more spin than the underhand one.

 

[mmeece]

That would be a great answer to have when you consider how much time some spend trying to correct a bullet into 6-12. We may find out that there's not a lot of value in doing that.

If you throw 67-68+ and are having success then there probably isn't much to gain by investing time in correcting the spin if the pitcher just doesn't have a feel for it. Having umpired and caught for a number of pitchers who were 55-65 I can tell you that correct spin matters a great deal for them. One of the best rise balls I saw as an umpire this year was from a girl who threw no faster than 58 or so but had true backspin. The fastest pitcher I saw averaged about 64-65 and got some outs with her bullet-spin rise but it was nowhere near as effective.

My own dd had the ability to throw both types of spin and the true backspin rise just seems to float up. When you see the same pitcher throw both types there is a significant difference in my experience.

 

[ArmWhip]

I guess the overhand throw just allows itself to so much more spin than the underhand one.

I have always wondered about the science behind the difference in breaking pitches between baseball and softball. A bigger ball means more surface are, but also more weight. I believe the softball is actually less dense so you would think it would be more affected by the Magnus force, especially with the higher seams. The shorter distance between the pitcher's plate and home makes it appear that the softball breaks less or doesn't break as sharply. If you threw a good palm up curve from the baseball pitching rubber I wonder what the break would look like with the 60ft distance? And then there's the difference in gripping the ball with the size difference. .