Swing down

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Jul 16, 2013
4,447
113
Pennsylvania
In working with DD on this drill and trying myself, i agree with the 'down to', and if 'no loop' means 'direct to the ball' then i also agree. I do not, however, agree with the imparting backspin. If that were the case the first step in the progression would not be possible. ie hitting into the plate.

I feel it as the wood chopping to start, hitting the ball square every time. Then each step out requires the body to get into a better posture to allow the ball to get farther while trying to make the same square contact. I don't think the drill wants you to hit under the ball to impart backspin, as if that were the case every step out would require to hit farther under to make the ball go farther out. As you attempt to hit the ball farther and farther on a line drive, by the time you are hitting over second base your posture should be pretty good, as the hands are still starting in the same higher shoulder position. The barrel needs to also start to get 'around' faster to meet the ball at the right angle to progressively hit the ball farther and farther. I see it as keeping essentially the same hand path (or at least the 'feel' of the same path) while getting the body into a better and better position to meet the ball.

We usually finish off trying to have her do the same thing but trying to hit bombs vs the liners over second. She has fun with it.

This has helped her not drop her hands to the ball , and be more direct because if the body doesn't move out of the way for the hands to get thru, the hands start doing bad things. I think.

FYI. Tewks also has a drill he calls the ladder drill. It's pretty similar in purpose.
 

TDS

Mar 11, 2010
2,506
113
Yes. I have tried the drill. Honestly, I prefer the drill that Chappy suggested years ago. It is similar to the Bonds drill but not quite as extreme.

I see your 2nd paragraph as the crux of the conversation.
  1. Backspin -- while this is a common goal and has been for years, I'm not sure the true benefit of backspin is equal to the perceived benefit. Plus, hitting the top of the ball (above the equator) is not going to produce backspin. At least based on my limited understanding of physics. Even if you are swinging down, you still must contact the ball below the equator in order to create backspin and create a line drive (or higher).
  2. Down to -- I have mentioned numerous times that if the thought process behind "down to" is hand path, I have no issue with it. But the barrel should not move in a downward path through contact. And I have not seen evidence to the contrary.
  3. Loop -- that is a term that is irrelevant to me. My goal is not and never has been to create a loop. The barrel path I want is the barrel path shown in the clip below. If you consider that a loop, then I apologize and I will admit that I promote a loop. But then you will also have to admit that Bonds swings with a loop instead of "down to".
m8ftpzf.gif

FP26, I don't believe anyone has stated the barrel should be moving in a downward path through contact.. I have always stated "down to"... I have said numerous times and Bonds has said and shows he doesn't want the barrel to come into the ball from under (loop)...

Nothing wrong with this path since it allows him barrel control and drive it through the target.

yrDZtmK.gif



Do You see the difference created with the barrel path it one is ABAF during "down to" ?

knzdEtX.gif


Vs

Getting leveraged fyb before swinging "down to".

apmXUw5.gif
 

TDS

Mar 11, 2010
2,506
113
Shawn and I definitely have differences in what we think, but there is also some common ground. I do not claim that the hands are not involved, I just don't believe in forced supination. I do not want to speak for Shawn or anyone else. I would prefer they speak for themselves.

FP26, do you and Shawn have common ground in regards to the rear leg/hip being an engine where the lead side's primary job is to catch the swing ?
 

TDS

Mar 11, 2010
2,506
113
IMO some of the new school thought (ttb) was created to eliminate the steep barrel path while using the rear leg/hip as the driver (ABAF).

PLJPjLS.gif
 
Jun 8, 2016
9,307
113
FYB and utilizing lead side even though it does appear he launches without much pressure on the front foot? Or nah different pattern entirely? Thoughts? (you can ignore the messenger and the message if you like..just look at the swing... :) ) I see a guy who moves out balanced while creating some resistance which allows him to launch when he needs to.

 
Last edited:
Apr 11, 2015
864
63
I ask questions because you and Shawn are miles apart when it comes to TTB. Just trying to get some clarity of the different definitions floating around. Shawn's version seems to be a replica of TM... while yours seems to be something entirely different. It's hard to have a conversation when you don't know where the goalposts are, just trying to establish that.
Here's the thing, "TTB" can be either a descriptor as I (and I think FP) use it in a sentence to describe a bat's movement and barrel path which can be accomplished in a number of ways (passively and/or aggressively). Or a name or label for an ill-fate teaching mechanic of torquing/twisting the bat by pronating and supinating the respective forearms as the first move of the swing, to get the bat to move in an overly aggressive manner (that I don't like or teach), that at times because of that, will or can get dumped, too loopy, cast, or whatever out of pitch plane term you'd like to call it.

My only thought or suggestion is that FP, myself, and others who see the initial rearward move of the barrel, but don't subscribe to the overly aggressive, pronation/supination of the forearms that one person has labeled "TTB"...is to call our view of that rearward barrel path something different to remove the confusion, since some here can't seem to be able to separate or differentiate the two (intellectually or maliciously...dunno 🤷‍♂️).

But since I've not much into inventing names for things, I'll just throw it out there that maybe, the "Barrel Gets Turned" (BGT), which doesn't state how it gets turned, only that it does, might be a remedy for the confusion. Then, it's up to the instructor to learn the various ways one's able to accomplish that, to what extent, and to then teach the correct barrel path that matches that of high level hitters. If someone has a better name to describe it, and differentiate it from the now apparently infamous "TTB", I'm all for that as well.

With that said, if one's able to teach that the "BGT" correctly using the "swing down" cue to match that of HL hitters, well then outstanding...I hope to see some members' developing players posted here displaying that. So far I've seen several members post some of their DD's and DS's really nice swings using the BGT method with great success (EricF and JDint off the top of my head), and think they're definitely on the right track, and that those swings will serve their players very well in the future.

Just my thoughts, hope others will chime in to finally put an end to the "TTB" confusion of terms.
 
May 12, 2016
4,265
113
Shawn and I definitely have differences in what we think, but there is also some common ground. I do not claim that the hands are not involved, I just don't believe in forced supination. I do not want to speak for Shawn or anyone else. I would prefer they speak for themselves.
Yes I was chatting with Shawn asking Shawn questions, trying to get his definition of TTB, giving him the opportunity to speak for himself, that’s when you inserted your comments
 
May 12, 2016
4,265
113
Here's the thing, "TTB" can be either a descriptor as I (and I think FP) use it in a sentence to describe a bat's movement and barrel path which can be accomplished in a number of ways (passively and/or aggressively). Or a name or label for an ill-fate teaching mechanic of torquing/twisting the bat by pronating and supinating the respective forearms as the first move of the swing, to get the bat to move in an overly aggressive manner (that I don't like or teach), that at times because of that, will or can get dumped, too loopy, cast, or whatever out of pitch plane term you'd like to call it.

My only thought or suggestion is that FP, myself, and others who see the initial rearward move of the barrel, but don't subscribe to the overly aggressive, pronation/supination of the forearms that one person has labeled "TTB"...is to call our view of that rearward barrel path something different to remove the confusion, since some here can't seem to be able to separate or differentiate the two (intellectually or maliciously...dunno 🤷‍♂️).

But since I've not much into inventing names for things, I'll just throw it out there that maybe, the "Barrel Gets Turned" (BGT), which doesn't state how it gets turned, only that it does, might be a remedy for the confusion. Then, it's up to the instructor to learn the various ways one's able to accomplish that, to what extent, and to then teach the correct barrel path that matches that of high level hitters. If someone has a better name to describe it, and differentiate it from the now apparently infamous "TTB", I'm all for that as well.

With that said, if one's able to teach that the "BGT" correctly using the "swing down" cue to match that of HL hitters, well then outstanding...I hope to see some members' developing players posted here displaying that. So far I've seen several members post some of their DD's and DS's really nice swings using the BGT method with great success (EricF and JDint off the top of my head), and think they're definitely on the right track, and that those swings will serve their players very well in the future.

Just my thoughts, hope others will chime in to finally put an end to the "TTB" confusion of terms.
I’m still waiting for you to post a video of you or one of your students with good posture, sequence and a down to approach. All you gave so far was student in ABAF sequence and a reminiscence of the old days when you were ABAF.

And if you believe getting behind the ball means it’s ok to sacrifice getting to this position then good luck to you and your hitters
1627145164558.jpeg
 
Apr 11, 2015
864
63
In working with DD on this drill and trying myself, i agree with the 'down to', and if 'no loop' means 'direct to the ball' then i also agree. I do not, however, agree with the imparting backspin. If that were the case the first step in the progression would not be possible. ie hitting into the plate.

I feel it as the wood chopping to start, hitting the ball square every time. Then each step out requires the body to get into a better posture to allow the ball to get farther while trying to make the same square contact. I don't think the drill wants you to hit under the ball to impart backspin, as if that were the case every step out would require to hit farther under to make the ball go farther out. As you attempt to hit the ball farther and farther on a line drive, by the time you are hitting over second base your posture should be pretty good, as the hands are still starting in the same higher shoulder position. The barrel needs to also start to get 'around' faster to meet the ball at the right angle to progressively hit the ball farther and farther. I see it as keeping essentially the same hand path (or at least the 'feel' of the same path) while getting the body into a better and better position to meet the ball.

We usually finish off trying to have her do the same thing but trying to hit bombs vs the liners over second. She has fun with it.

This has helped her not drop her hands to the ball , and be more direct because if the body doesn't move out of the way for the hands to get thru, the hands start doing bad things. I think.
The bold, and underlined is spot on, very intuitive, and where the actua "swing down" is no longer in play...since the barrel can't be "down to" and "around" at the same time.

Excellent post "fan". 👍🏽
 
Oct 13, 2014
4,164
113
South Cali
FYB and utilizing lead side even though it does appear he launches without much pressure on the front foot? Or nah different pattern entirely? Thoughts? (you can ignore the messenger and the message if you like..just look at the swing... :) ) I see a guy who moves out balanced while creating some resistance which allows him to launch when he needs to.


Bingo!
 

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