Struggling with IR - Return to HE?

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Apr 1, 2021
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This is the craziest thing I've read in a while. T


a) What does "forcing the rollover at release" mean?
b) What does "short-arming her delivery" mean?
c) Who cares if it is 10-4 spin instead of 12-6? It doesn't matter...a large portion of the top pitchers throw bullet spin.

Perfect spin matters when she wants to throw a drop or rise, *NOT* on the average, ordinary fastball.


Huh??? "Extend the arm circle?" What does that mean?

Take a video of her from 2B and post it. We can tell you in 30 seconds if there is a problem with her arm circle.

I have two aunts (both in their late 90s) who are the nicest, most trustworthy people on the planet. They don't know anything about softball pitching--which appears to be similar to your PC.

The PC doesn't know what he/she is doing. He is selling you a load of crock.

I can post 100 pictures of the top pitchers with the ball facing home at 12. The man is Adam Folkard, who was *THE* best pitcher in the world. The women are Odicci Alexander, Montana Fouts and Cat Osterman.

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Seems I worded some of that improperly, but totally get your points. Instead of "forcing the rollover" it should've read "forcing the palm down on follow through"...which is creating bullet spin but slowing down her velocity in the process. Short arming her delivery was more to do with the coach describing her arm circle being off.

Don't get me wrong, she has other mechanical flaws that need to be worked out that are also contributing to some of the regression...the biggest being her opening prematurely with a bit of a crow hop then replanting with her drive foot turned sideways.

I'll try to get some video from 2B tomorrow and post. Everything I have that's recent is from the side.

Really appreciate the feedback!
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
6,943
113
Dallas, Texas
Seems I worded some of that improperly, but totally get your points. Instead of "forcing the rollover" it should've read "forcing the palm down on follow through"...which is creating bullet spin but slowing down her velocity in the process. Short arming her delivery was more to do with the coach describing her arm circle being off.

Don't get me wrong, she has other mechanical flaws that need to be worked out that are also contributing to some of the regression...the biggest being her opening prematurely with a bit of a crow hop then replanting with her drive foot turned sideways.

I'll try to get some video from 2B tomorrow and post. Everything I have that's recent is from the side.

Really appreciate the feedback!
Post a side view and a view from 2B. There are some really good people on here that can give you some insight into her mechanical problems. Also, her age is helpful.

A big part of the IR motion is the IR of the forearm. That is, the palm is up at 9, and then rotates to face the plate at 6. Because the forearm is rotating quickly, the palm continues to rotate after release until it faces down.

The IR of the forearm is important because it is the fastest motion (other than blinking) a human body can make. There can be a timing issue where the player isn't getting the full benefit of the IR of the forearm. It is hard to imagine how it is slowing her down.

IR of the forearm is a very basic sport motion. It is used in golf, tennis, ping pong, baseball, football, basketball (passing, not shooting--"thumbs down" for a 2 hand chest pass), javelin, shot put and on and on.

Quitting IR to go from 10-4 spin to 12-6 spin makes no sense at all. Most likely, she just needs practice.
 
Last edited:
Jun 19, 2016
819
63
I honestly think IR happens naturally as pitchers advance. HE is something that very new pitchers use. To be honest I have never heard either of those terms used off the internet. I know you will never see any advanced pitcher use the technique described in this forum as hello elbow.

I don't know if I would get too hung up on 12/6 spin. The overwhelming majority of pitchers at the college world series did not have a 12/6 spin.
 
Last edited:
Oct 4, 2018
3,405
113
I follow other pitching coaches as my experts, but from what I've seen of what Tincher teaches, I agree with everything I've seen. I just got my hands on what Austin Wasserman (www.highlevelthrowing.com) is teaching as part of this high-level pitching program, and it's what Tincher teaches and includes some on-line interactive training from a Tincher trained pitching coach.

I'm a big Wasserman fan myself. Seems very scientific and logical.
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,250
83
I honestly think IR happens naturally as pitchers advance. HE is something that very new pitchers use. To be honest I have never heard either of those terms used off the internet. I know you will never see any advanced pitcher use the technique described in this forum as hello elbow.

I don't know if I would get too hung up on 12/6 spin. The overwhelming majority of pitchers at the college world series did not have a 12/6 spin.

As I've posted in other threads, I/R is what the body does naturally, and many beginning pitchers will naturally exhibit it, but instead of encouraging it, many coaches teach HE/"push the ball" around the circle because in the short run those pitchers throw more strikes.

I've done a quick 10-minute intro to I/R/ "pull the ball around the circle" to several young pitchers over the years and ask them which feels more comfortable, and they all say, "pull the ball around the circle", not "push the ball around the circle". One 10u rec pitcher I showed that to went from struggling to fairly consistently throwing strikes in about two weeks. Unfortunately, she didn't have a lot of velocity and was throwing it down the middle of the plate, so was getting hit. But balls getting put into play is what 10u rec should be about.

In my local rec league 8u this spring, the pitchers who will be the best pitchers in 10u were using I/R but struggling in 8u because they were still figuring out the brush interference part.

There are still a couple old school pitching coaches in my area who teach beginners "H/E", then when the pitchers are ready for "advanced pitching", switch them over to I/R. Why? Teach them correctly from the beginning.

My DD did I/R about half the time when she was 9. Brought her to a coach who I had watched give what to my in-experienced eye was what Bill Hillhouse taught during lessons. She was of the HE for beginners' school and messed her up in 2 lessons. Luckily, I got her in with Rich Balswick, but it took 4 or 5 lessons to fix what the HE coach messed up in two lessons.
 
Last edited:
May 13, 2021
195
43
There is a PC in my area that teaches HE. He has had some pretty successful pitchers. When you watch a video of his older girls that are successful all of them pitch with IR. I know he does not teach this to the older girls, they just figure it out on there own in spite of the instruction they received. Not sure how he squares this in his head when they start pitching differently. Just watch videos and you will see how all high level pitchers pitch, find you a PC that teaches that, and stick with them for a little while.
 
Jan 22, 2011
1,250
83
“Explanation of difference betwen "HE" and "I/R"
hello elbow vs whip video - Google Search

Beware that the above link is actually a comparison of Forearm Fire and Hello Elbow. Not whip.

Thanks for the catch, Ken. I've never dug into Forearm Fire much and haven't gone into depth on Wasserman's pitching e-book. I'll watch out for that when I look more at Wasserman's High Level Pitching.

I grabbed the video really quick to send to someone at Win Reality when I told them that I watched one of their Demo videos which had a pitcher throwing with a H/E finish made me wince so he could see the difference between H/E and whip.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
6,943
113
Dallas, Texas
I honestly think IR happens naturally as pitchers advance.
I think it is more pitchers advance because they adopt IR. Pitchers that don't adopt IR are left behind.

To be honest I have never heard either of those terms used off the internet.
@BoardMember coined the phrase "internal rotation" for softball pitching. He used the term "because its the anatomically correct description of the motion." And he is right...Internal rotation is a very common scientific term used in kinesiology and anatomy.

@BoardMember advanced the general knowledge of softball pitching. He said many times that he didn't invent IR, he just took the time to explain it.
 
May 16, 2016
825
63
I think it is more pitchers advance because they adopt IR. Pitchers that don't adopt IR are left behind.
Or perhaps "IR" is a natural motion, and doesn't really require "Teaching"?

HE is a finish, and while it is kind of pointless... it doesn't really cause harm either.... I think teaching a palm down finish is equally pointless... Why waste time teaching what your arm should do after releasing the ball?
 

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